Transcript
Coming in hot. Yeah. Love it. Earphone Rattler live from an ESG decorated water heater. It's the ESG Industries. Only weakly woke data podcast, featuring and Alice home at mascardi. Oh, you guys You gotta do this in the morning more often. You're all in today's ESG badass CFO. That's it just a bedazzled CFO. I don't know. It's well, there aren't many CFOs anymore. So, I'm glad you found one. I'll get to this later today is called what is today. January, 17th 2024 Today Show. We talk about bored bored. Bored bored. Not talking about boards. B o r e d. This is a board special just for you. Our show today is being sponsored by free flow analytics. The only ESG data platform to measure real board influence and diversity power gaps. Yes, you know what? Crowd loves it loves it. Let's get right into it because our data, highlights this for story, better than any other data set that you could find in the ESG space in history. Yes. Yeah. So you want to get into it gonna give me a do I get a transition know the crowd? Yeah. I hate that. I hate that music. You asked for it, by the way. Before I get to the story was something I was working on before the show. Some kind of amalgamation between CFO and UFO because the cfo's don't last in their jobs anymore. No UFO, you know, unidentified no one. So no one knows what this, you see where I'm going here. No one knows where the cfo's are because they're there for three months. They get their own little bonus, and they get their golden parachute. So maybe what if it was, we can Workshop this. I mean, you could have this cufo, which is one thing but but you if you do the you see if it's like where this is going. See it's more. What about the UFC? Oh then they're cage fighting. Can we put this conversation into our pitch deck for potential investors? This very conversation about if listeners haven't turned off now they won't. All right, let's get to it. Elon Musk has issued an ultimatum to Tesla's board hand over control of 25% of the vote or put the brakes on AI development. Of course he posted this map on one of his other companies on a it's called X. Now, it's not Twitter anymore, he said that he would feel uncomfortable, expanding the EV companies, Ai and Robotics capabilities without controlling, a quarter of the voting. Bloc, he added that the voting power would make him influential, but but ultimately overridable regarding me the decisions. What Damien? I have a question for you first, approximately how influential is Elon Musk on the board? According to free flow analytics. Okay. What is the number now 709%, 70 percent 70 percent and that does not include his brother? Explain that quickly. What is that? Number means 70%. All right, so quickly analytics.com, you'll see an influencer number for every single director on every single board. Over years. The influence number represents their resume, their status on the board, their role on the board, and their network connections on the board. It's basically a measure of how powerful that human being is on that board. That's what it is. And on top of that Tesla is nothing but him. It's the whole narrative behind Tesla and the whole reason why this stock price is so over inflated. Is this incredible unicorn filled narrative created by the supposed Genius of Elon Musk? So that he doesn't. So he what I'm taking out of the statement is that he doesn't consider himself already influential so that's what that's yeah, I know, right? That's the implication there. So let's talk quickly, yeah, go ahead, it's all so eight hymns. Let's talk about who yeah, let's quickly talk about the what how the board stands today that there's only eight board members of Tesla, one of them being Elon Musk. So here you have the chair Robyn denholm who's only the chair because the SEC told her to be the chair that they told Elon. He couldn't be the chair because of his all of his stupid tweet Twitter and he was doing. I went back through the archives, in fact, Robyn denholm said no to the job because she didn't want it but she it was either her or James Murdoch at the time. Only two directors, who were independent at the time? Let's talk about James Murdoch. He's the third of eight directors. He described himself in testimony. Remember there was suing the board because of their ridiculously huge pay package giving to Elon Musk. He just described himself. in testimony in court as a friend, if Elon Musk since 2006, Remember under oath? So that's a third of a directors. Then you have era Ira, Aaron Price, He is an investor who had he had Tesla's compensation committee. He has been close to MUSC for years. According this is again from the same court case, according to court documents, he helped Elon design that 2018 paid deal. And and as a director he was giving almost 10 million dollars in stock options in 2018. So when no ways is he independent, right? I mean there's not a is there a single other director that we can find? Who's giving that much money in stock options and considered independent? That's an executive level seller right there. Not only that, but he is, the founder of a venture firm that invested in must musk early. Right? Like so he's a VC bro. Yeah. But first i'm gonna repeat according to New York Times, he has quote been close to Mr. Musk For years. Okay yeah. Yes okay and and receive 10 million dollars in pages to sit in the board that helps they were unheard already converted. They were already watching football games together, the 10 million was just extra. So that's the fourth, I haven't even gotten to to numbers five and six, Matt. Well, one of them is the Tesla co-founder and who and the CTO for 14 years old on the board. I'm serious one of the co-founders and former executive JB Straubel and, and Matt. Number six is a true Laffer. Can you believe I waited for this guy? For number six is a guy named Kimball musk. There you go. You That's that's after I talked about all these others and then finally find them Independence. There might be, there might be two Independents Kathleen, Wilson Thompson. I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna go out in a lemon, says, independent. I'm not gonna talk about her joke, the seventh director, Joe gabbia. Yeah. Now you're making a claim that he's not really independent. Why, why is he not really? All right, so, Joe Gabby looks independent, he's airbnb's, co-founder, but I looked at the Airbnb board and on the Airbnb board is a member from Sequoia who funded virtually every single musk Endeavor. Jeff Jordan from Andreessen Horowitz, who Marc Andreessen and musk are like like Liberty in Bros, right? Like they basically love each other and the CFO of block which is owned by Jack Dorsey, who is another bro, who must bought Twitter from. So the people around Joe Gabriel, who Joe Gabby a chose would Just that Joe gebbia. At least is in the orbit of musk or knows of him or has run into him you know they must have done mushrooms together somewhere. Right. But but even without him you have two friends, you have a brother, you have a co-founder you have Elon that's five out of the eight votes right there. This guy who thinks he's not influential, it is now blackmailing his own company essentially to get more voting power but that to me isn't the worst part, okay? The worst part about the whole thing is that investor. So first of all it's a classified board. Meaning there's only like two to three directors that come up per year. Joe Gabby was added to the board and at the end of 2022, but because of the class of director, he is he actually doesn't get a vote from investors until this year. So he has been on the board for gets to sit around for a while. Yeah. Well he even has investors even get a say which is A joke in and of itself. But then when investors get to say the lowest vote total has been 60. Some percent 60 8%, I believe pretty low for Robyn denholm which is pretty low. Yeah, for one of the chair, right? Like nobody likes to chair, they're all blaming her for Stuff. Meanwhile, Kimball musk got an 80% four vote. The last time he was up, Elon musk's brother, who's 1/8 of the board and has actually 80% for votes. He eats a Chipotle and wears a cowboy hat. What are we talking about? Like for expertise, there is no expertise there and investors have effectively allowed themselves to get held hostage by not voting against him. In fact, if you want to blame somebody like you blame the investors for not voting but blame ISS and glass Lewis for not actually looking at free flow, analytics data and saying this is one of the most compromised Boards of any Board of all day. You're talking about an ISS and glass Lewis that will vote against you. If you've attended 73% of board meetings or if you're sitting on three other boards like stuff like that. Like little check mark box cup type of stuff but they won't vote against you if you're the they're helping the CEO and co-founder consolidate an unusual amount of power. I mean to me, it's actually, it's, it's truly insane that we, when a joke JB Strobel came up as a pointy on the board that there was a there was like actual quibbling over whether or not he was independent in enough and they said vote, like one, I think glass Lewis or ISS said, vote for and the other one said vote again. To me like the fact that we're even having a debate about that is absurd on its face. A guy who worked with Elon Musk for 14 years at the company, where he would be on the board while the brothers on the board and elon's on the board and their funders on the board. What do we saying at what point do we say like, you know, musk has enough influence and yet somehow musk is managed to say. I need 25% of the shares. What he needs to share for is actually to buy back the debt of Twitter, because nothing to do with AI want to share, is to buy, right? Oh to buy Twitter. So what's the end of the story here? Matt is, this is this is way to leave, we speculated for a long time that he, he's gonna step down and CEO. Tesla is this is way out. If they don't They don't give in to his demands. I mean, like it could be, it could be his, excuse me, right? Like and and then he could blame the board who he hand-picked, but more likely. They're just gonna give him what he wants and this is a non-story anyway. So it's win-win for him, right? Like if they go to him and say no, then he can leave. In fact, they probably in back door channels are brokering a deal. As we speak probably converting some of his shares into Super voting shares. I'm guessing like there could be a million ways they could do this but they could actually say do you want us to give you this PayPal package or not like you want to step down and this is his quote on quote graceful exit, right? Like Tesla can be its own company, he doesn't have the headaches that he has with the SEC anymore. He can run his other seven companies by himself and make flamethrowers and dig holes and go to space. Like, all right, he'll dig holes in space with a flamethrower knows. We got three other boards to talk about. Let's move on I'm not enough of enough of Elon Musk hired ult. Boeing. Oh one of your favorite boards. Boeing Boeing's board faces scrutiny yet again of course. I'm going to remind everyone. The only three years ago 2021 Boeing's board, paid a hefty 250 million dollar fine to settle a shareholder lawsuit that accused of failing in its fiduciary, duty to monitor safety and initially lying about its response to the first of two, fatal 737 max8 crashes. Okay, let's not forget that as a backdrop now for into the show. No, no, she came out to say that the board is a Serial offender that doesn't learn from past mistakes. She says, it's a bad board and it has been a bad word for a long time. It is a bad board. Yeah. Part of the problem is she points out. This is interesting to me is that she says that, that the board doesn't have enough pressure to change. She doesn't mention Cheryl pressure because they certainly have an push anyone out. But she says, because Boeing is part of a duopoly with Airbus, it doesn't really have any incentive to to change, right? It's it's just too competitors, their Airbus and Boeing and she says that giving them companies market dominance the Board is allowed to put financial and not Aviation engineering first. So, so she's saying that the board is able to focus on finances. Because again, it's part of this Diwali Well, I look, we have chronicled Ad nauseam on this show. That no one listens to all the cronyism on the Boeing board, right? Like so I want to get right to the board. Know I just I what I want to say about the board is none of this is new as in even the refreshments. We we're not investigative journalists, we spend seven minutes doing fact-based research to figure out. Oh this person knows this person from this place. It's not really that hard and yet investors value But investors 90% Plus for votes for every director on this board year in and year out, 90%, they did find this article, Fortune did find someone who actually likes the bone boards, other than the 904% shareholders. And her name is Joel and Posner. Associate professor of management at Santa Clara University's Levy School of Business. She says she applauds the company for adding Aviation and risk experts. While replacing directors with financial government and trade expertise. She says, if I were putting together a board for Boeing, this is what I would choose. Now, I looked into, so I looked I decided to look into the who are the six new directors since the two fatal crashes, only a few years ago. And let's not forget that one of the ways they dealt with, with these governance changes was to a point their own lead independent director, who's been part of the company culture for about 15 years to CEO. That's Dave Calhoun. That is one of the ways they dealt with this. Okay. Yes, that is how they figure fixed this problem. So I there are six new directors and I will say that there are that while. Yes, there are three of them who seem to have a background in safety in courting Stacy Harris, former Inspector General of the Air Force, three of them at one is a finance expert from KPMG. One is the basically a former CFO from UTC in Pall Corporation. And then there's the former CEO at Qualcomm Qualcomm, the semi conductors company. So three of them have no nothing about safety and somehow magically they've been appointed. Since this bird board turnover. I but look, no one ever got hurt by a computer chip. So that's how they know. But it shows that by maintaining the the past old guard by, by promoting Dave Calhoun that nothing has changed there. You're still not, you're still not highlighting safety over Finance, right? You you got you appointed, Lynn Dowdy a finance expert from KPMG. That was one of the, the choices after two fatal crashes. Well, this yeah. Well, wait, that's normal Playbook, isn't it? Isn't that the Playbook that you had? Like, you always had the account on the board. Like, they already have plenty of their airplane of accountants and I'm just making sure they have enough right, to Nell's point, they already had that they've already had people on the board who helped them make money better Kim, we get Jo Ellen, Posner and Nelson. Oh, on this show for A debate about whether or not bowing is a good board and why right? We can try Let's do it. Okay. And can I just this one throw away about Boeing? I just want to remind the audience this incredible coincidence. Consumer Advocate Ralph Nader Ralph Nader. Sorry NADA his man. You gonna stop laughing now on the second Boeing 737 Max 8 crash his grandniece, died on that on that plane consider Advocate Ralph Nader and he rightly called for the entire board to resign. So, there you go. That's just a strange coincidence here in this Boeing board story that his Grandy's was on that plane one of those plans. But the fact is I I'm tired of the Boeing board and they're like the that we started this company because we realized there not when the max 8 planes fell out of this guy. We went to the story and said not who was on the board that green lit, the max 8 planes but how did they get there? Like how, like, how does this board get chosen, how does a bunch of people in a room all decide to raise their hand and say, I agree, green light this plane that cuts corners and maximizes profit and we're in a prophet. Race with Airbus and don't do it, right? Whatever the case may be, right? We asked how not. Who in that case? And still to this day, the board is effectively constructed. The same exact way. That board was constructed that board all new the head of the nominee committee from his lobbying group. This board, they all know Dave, Kyle home from various places, it's all constructed through a network of fist bumps and Bros. So I don't know what more there is to say about this. Nell is right? This is not, this is a bad, this is how boards usually get built which is the tragedy. This is how investors tend to vote, which is 90% for every single one of them without doing any due diligence. And this is what happens when the board is green, lighting, things that can come out of the sky and kill you. This is what happens when it's like. You know, there's there's actually safety problems. This is Norfolk. Southern this is Boeing. They're all the same. So I'm tired of it. Let's do something else. Like yes, never talked about Boeing again. I think that is a possible on, you know, probably talk about the tomorrow. Yeah, let's not forget that. The chair of the board is a man named Lauren's Kelner. He has been on the board since 200011. Yeah. Yeah. No. He's in a leadership position with Dave Calhoun, who was also one of the Old Guard? Yep. I mean nothing has changed on this board. And yet, in this round, I mean, thankfully, no one has died yet, but in this round of horrible accidents, I don't hear anyone calling for for Dave, Calhoun to step down or the chair. What about just the chair Larry Kellner there since 2011. How did he last through the first round? I don't even know how he's still there. I took I think the question has to be asked if you were voting, 90% for every one of these directors and Dave Calhoun you are giving a vote of confidence to manage management is this what you want as an investor because this isn't the first time now, this is a continuation of the same problem. These planes, don't get built yesterday. These planes get built over a decade, and they get billed poorly, and then they fall out of the sky. In fact, when you do The like the postmortem. A board that makes a decision in 2011. The average board 10 year is 7 to 10 years, which means, most of the board had already flipped off. By the time, the planes are in the sky and there's no accountability for them then. So when you get pissed off because, you know, you have a shity outcome, you voted for it, 10 years ago, if you do the analytics. Now on the board, maybe you avoid the shity thing 10 years from now that will cost you money. I all so, Kellner sits on the board of Exxon Mobil. And you know, sits on the Safety Committee at Boeing. Oh, and I will. And there you go. Another guy's been there. Since 2010 is Ronald Williams, who was the former CEO of Aetna, the Healthcare company. So thank God. He's still there. He providing his expertise, he's the ad litty Old Guard, MetLife, was Ed lyddie, and and Aetna, and MetLife, or closer related, orgs. I think they all know each other. So there's this congratulations, just fist bumps. Moving on Disney rejects Nelson, peltz's push for abort seat. So Disney has a new file and his proxy contest. Here's a quote from the filing and deciding not to Mike drop moment here, which I like and deciding, not to recommend Mr. Pelts, the directors considered a number of factors including that in a two-year quest for a seat on Disney board. Mr. Pelts has not actually presented a single strategic idea for Disney. I like that one. But here in a surprise move, because it's something that we reported on I don't think we saw it really going this way Disney also rejected three board nominees put forward by investor firm Blackwell's Capital because Blackwell said that their directors would support Bob Iger but Disney doesn't want them either. And here's their reason for that, Matt, they say that they lack experience as directors of large public companies. All that, please get over it. Like, like, that's worked out really well for you Disney. Oh, PS. One of the people on your board. What? Like, if you look at the history of the Disney board, like, there were directors, who lacked director experience on the Disney board in the past. But now, that's the qualification. Now, they have, they have to have been on another board. I, yeah, I'm a little surprised by this. One of them was a former winner, Brothers, executive Jessica show. There's also a man, a real estate executive Craig hack off who co-founded the Tribeca. Film festival with Robert De Niro. I I guess I just would have assumed that since there were going to support Bob. Iger that they would they could use them but I don't know. I mean maybe Bob wants his own people. I get. Well, isn't yes, that is, that's your okay. That's okay. That's alright. So that's the craziness going over Disney and finally open AIC CEO Sam Altman. Speaking of a big board story. See how I did four big board stories here? Oh, that's who I saw that. Look at that Sam Altman. Opens up about being fired by the board. I love how he's always portrayed as some kind of victim don't open situation, just be quiet. So Altman said that the night he was pushed out by the board was quote Wild. And, and he felt quote. Super confused. and, And was quote, super caught off guard. Oh Honestly. like, Hey, I don't think why we what is this about, why are we asking him questions about it? Okay? This is what I want to talk about. So they're asking him about the board structure because ultimately it was the board structure who I, you know, in any board. The board has the overseas management and has the right to fire the CEO. So yeah, nobody should be surprised by this except the fact in America. I think everyone is always surprised if the board fires a CEO, right? That's the takeaway is that I had the power. I'm the CEO on the king. Yeah. How dare you do your job? Even though it's part of the biology, you, you're just tell you. Yes. But here's what he said, he said about this board structure. He said, but this is the structure and I immediately just went to go thinking about what I was going to do next. It was not until some board members called me the next morning that I even thought about really coming back. And he says, but like the board did have all the power there, he's so yeah, yeah, which is had but that's the way the structure was. That's Their your boss? Yeah. isn't the, I mean, Correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. but my understanding is that the board effectively represents shareholders or another stakeholder and Alex management so their Management's boss that seems correct. So being surprised that the board has the power Not to mention, you didn't know what a board was not to mention that he was doing numerous things that were against the mission and the the whole purpose of the company to begin with the well, don't worry. We're not rid of all the women who were. Yeah. So he was asked, whether open AI would reform this board structure and become a traditional Silicon Valley for profit company. And he was adamant that his startup would not do that. He said, well, never be traditional company. But he says but the structure I think we should take a look at the structure. Maybe the maybe the answer we have now is right but I think we should be willing to consider other things. He's just talking this is like CEO gobbledygook. He added that now was not the time to reconsider company structure and said he said the focus was on the board first. I don't know what the hell he's talking about. I guess getting in people that were favorable to him. He says, yeah, he says I think one of the things that's difficult to fix for us about open AI is the degree to, which our team in the people around us, invest in us or whatever are committed to this Mission. I mean, he is just full of first of all, he's he's a, he's a perfect kind of Melanie like us because I just don't understand, I worries talking about he there's a lot of super, a lot of whatever's, he talks in circles, he agrees with things that he doesn't agree with. He he likes structures that do their jobs and fire him but then it gets confused that they fired him and doesn't think they should have fired him and now he wants to replace them. He's a very confusing despot is he not look every single Tech bro has come out and said AI could be the most destructive force that you including him repeatedly. He really actually says the most things about how worried he is about it destroying the world but it but like people who are naturally destructive like Elon Musk likes to like go in and make capricious decisions are worried about the destructive nature of AI, the potential destructive nature of AI so much so that we you just pulled a headline about open. AI is not going to work on any campaigning, you know, they're like removing themself from all election activity. They want to, but Facebook. Yeah. But there legitimately worried about the negative consequences of the thing they've built. So in advance of that, they built a structure, That attempts to avoid those negative consequences. Yes, it doesn't seem more complicated than know, I know. And this is why like, is he fainting confusion? I mean, again he likes the structure. He doesn't like the structure, he doesn't think we should focus on the structure and yet he wants new board members because because one of the women they fired was wasn't. She's a scholar from MIT who writes, who does her research on the very thing just referring to. Yes. So so but he was but she is one of the people that he wasn't comfortable with because She voted against him and he also have a company where reportedly 98% of the staff are on his side. So there are absolutely no checks and balances if that's the case, right there is not a single voice that contradicts what's in his brain know? I I think there was properly a check in Balance, the boy, think the board I think. And I was being it's ridiculed now worldwide for doing a dumb thing. It's, it's incredible that we've got, we're writing this narrative. That the board was the one that fucked up. Where is and the reason why I picked this story today is it was it's the only board out of, you know, Disney Boeing Tesla doing its job doing it well shop to the letter of its mandate. Exactly And I think, actually, the fear here is a much more basic fear, Sam Altman. Just you covered like two weeks ago, he's buying houses in Hawaii or somewhere, right? Like, I mean, like, these are people who are constant odds with themselves about the amount of money at stake. The amount of we're out there fundraising right now, right? Like we are looking for investors and what we do and it is incredibly difficult because we have a mission with what we want to achieve. We want to talk about these boards. We want to fix the market for these boards. When we talk about these things we want to use actual data and analytics to measure the effectiveness of these boards. Not pretend we do, right? We want that. And we yes and we want the narrative to point to these boards. We want people to understand how they work, you know, was on the board and we want to be able to you know when you're talking about these corporations to talk about the people that matter, right? If you can remember the name of the backup left tackle on the Green Bay Packer you should know the names of the boards of the companies where you shop, because they're the ones who are your check and balance, or if you're one of the many Americans who is increasingly, you know, irritated angry upset embarrassed by the actions of Elon musky about a minimum knowing that his brother who knows nothing about anything is sitting on that publicly traded company board, his brother, Get the muscular. If you, if you don't believe what the politics of the company, I don't care if you think the company is woke or not woke you don't, if you can't name a board member, you don't know who you to be angry at knowing the person's name and how they perform. And what they actually do and say is important and we're out there looking for investors to invest in this mission, right? Like that's what we want to do but it's very hard because investors come at you and they say well, we kind of like that but we really like this and they want you to focus on another thing, right? Like they want you to build what they're interested in and if you're Sam Altman and you know, that AI is a just potentially destructive force on Humanity. But investors are saying. Yeah but what if this will make a trillion dollars? I want you to do that. Yeah. You want to buy the house in Hawaii. It's really hard to tell that investor know that's against the mission because they won't invest anymore and suddenly you're out in the cold. So this is the Toe game. But the reason the board exists is to say, Sam, I know you want all that money. We know we need the money, but you cannot destroy Humanity to get the money. That's not the, that's not the Mandate and missions company. That's, yeah, that's a complicated, a sidebar. He doesn't have, he doesn't actually own any equity in openai and he made all that money. Even not at open AI. Yes. Somehow. He somehow. Yeah. Somehow somehow. And, and by the way, the news I'm getting on the street map is the reason why investors are hesitant and you know, and investment funds are hesitant to use. Our data is that they don't want to be uncomfortable at dinner parties. Yeah. It's one of the directors is there, right? Yeah, well that's the problem. There's a social attention, there's not social attention like like, you know, it's if we treated boards like sports teams, you don't have the same social tension, you're not. Right about that, but you're worried about it because you're gonna go to the golf club later on. And you might see XYZ board member there who, you just voted against But this is easier to do. If you have data that says they won't look. I gave you 12 years to perform you. Underperformed your Market peers on earnings TSR. We didn't even talk about like the fact that these board members at Tesla or all, and you may think of Tesla as like, you know, stock to the Moon, whatever. Bulshit they're all average, they are absolutely 100%. Almost all across the board average performers for earnings and TSR where the average director in, like their peers. They're just average, that includes Kimball musk and Elon himself is just average, but the data says, I'm not saying that I'm saying in the 10-year that we have up for their board. You know, like positions versus their peers. It turns out actually over time, they're just average. Yeah, which is why it's important to focus on the main takeaway of Boeing Disney. Tesla. And that is that they are using their boards as a means of consolidating CEO power, which is again, not the purpose of these boards and and to your point using our data to discover the fact that a lot of them are just average. In the first place, it should give shareholders incentive to vote on people who actually have a skill set that represents their shareholder values, right? We just generated around or whatever. I just worked on this yesterday. I'm generating a list of mid cap. Small cap directors, who have been on multiple mid caps, small cap boards, who outperformed their peers, you basically have a minor league of directors that you can just bring up and put them on large cap boards because they have experience in doing things that you want as investor look where the cloud cover for you to make a decision. That might be socially awkward for you or difficult to explain because you meet these directors, you might know them. This just data you like if they're stuck. Are performed you'd happily vote people out, but you can vote them out before the stock underperforms and put together a team that might avoid that. Hey, for, if you haven't seen the show, Survivor, I apologize, but just do what they do on Survivor after you vote. Somebody out, just lie about it just say oh it wasn't me. It was glass Lewis about you do it while holding a tiki tours. Don't worry about it. Just lie. You probably lie about other things in your life, lie about who you're voting out. That's a show, that's the point. Both, that's his love is, I am your animals so I'm at Scotty, we are free float. This is your woke Wednesday show. We've got a proxy countdown tomorrow, it might be a little on the late side. We got a Thursday or Friday wrap-up show. I think Chantal might try to join us. Maybe I don't try to join again, who knows. But until then Goodbye.