Business Pants – 2023-07-26

Live. Whoo, ha ha back again. From the tail and of ESG month. Sad. It's the ESG Industries. Only weakly work data podcast. Featuring BM man. Matt mascardi. Yeah, my new nickname I hate it. Wait what does that mean? Again bored bored member more but that's a terrible nickname. Board member, you know, we did it. We had to change the name. I know of the platform so it was BS and it was great. And now it's, maybe she goes, perfect, screw them. And now I'm. Yeah. And today's egg wash Speedo gas can call July 26th, 2013, get these things, and that does not refer to our great guests coming up. So I just want everyone to know, not even close. We have a very special ESG month guests from the great state of Illinois. Matt, why are they always say that? Why are all the states? So great because I, I can guarantee about 20 of the states, really aren't great at all. They saw, I think, I think it's a measurement. I think it's a physical measurement, like the Great. As in large State, we have on our show today. US House of Representative members, Sean Caston. Yes, that's right. So you may have seen me live streamed our conversation with me yesterday. Know I was in, I mean, I was in the conversation. How would I know that? How would I seen that? You wouldn't know that but everybody else knows that I'm talking to you live stream, the conversation with him. Yesterday, we are going to put the, you know, I went to go edit it today and it's just he's so good. I love Sean casting. Yeah, like he. So, we talked about the ESG hearing's. He talked about ESG in general and woke ISM and how like he actually talked about how the conservatives and his colleagues, who some of whom he's friends with are thinking about it and what they actually are like about it. He was there was no talking points. It was the anti Vivic, he was the anti Vivic. He told us about all the late night parties at Congress. Yeah. Like No, he did not, it did not come up, but it's a really great interview. It is great, Sean Caston, maybe a little move to Maine and run for Senate. I know I was a little disappointed that he's not local well, Illinois needs him. So that's really our show today, we'll have a couple of ESG month, related headlines will start with but really the bulk of the show is dedicated to the great interview. We had yesterday with Sean Caston. Other than that, Matt, that's all. Oh, our show today is being sponsored by ESG Data Solutions provider. We talked to skate, today we had a meeting with this gauge Skech, wants to like they're talking about. They want to do all sorts of stuff with us because we all we do is have fun. And there's work great and just great. Then associating with us, makes them greater, do you hear that other sponsor potential sponsors to show? We're great, just get on board messages. It was my awful personality, this, keeping sponsors away but hey, I didn't suggest that outright I said, take that as a win, I said it out, right? Well, I want to say this. Yeah, if you're watching this on the live stream right now, then you're gonna have to go get the podcast or watch yesterday's live stream to watch. So, Interview with rep Casten. Otherwise we're just gonna talk about some news. We'll wrap it up. The go, get the Pod. Yeah, and then you can hear the full interview. Yeah, come on. What are you waiting for? Go, go. Give us ratings and stuff. Why do we get no more ratings? Why does everybody write like I love reach out for one, right? It's an email. Go to the LinkedIn, like, get on the platform. We're also sponsored by freefloat, analytics.com. All right, let's let's do some news and this is like, coaching news to the conversation. We had yes, with rep cast and so good. The music cut you off. Actually okay for once for once the music feels appropriate, that feels like the representative from the great state of Illinois, walking into some kind of a chamber and ESG month chamber. That's what happened. So now I get the music Yeah. Now finally, this is how good Sean Castle is a kid. You know, that I I got two articles for yesterday's conversation and he unwittingly he didn't know about these articles, he kind of referenced. Both of them without having me. Say talk about the Articles, so he's on top of his game. Yeah, I actually I gotta admit like the first question. I asked him was, have you ever? What's your name? Gee. Oh yeah. Before the ESG hearings came and hit you because like, I've been doing this for 15 years, my mom doesn't know what I do. Right? Like, she's I believe that she had a Brothers, though. She's busy. Know she, I mean, I might as well be a janitor. She has no idea what I do. And he knew everything, cast, a new everything. Yeah. He'd like he, he's like, spitting back the news. Like he knew it back in front but what are the stories that here are the two ESG month related stories? First it was an op-ed. Where was this op-ed Fox? Oh, Fox news.com. I'm sure it was deeply nuanced, and heavily research. And here's why I pulled his article. It was written by at least one of his colleague's, Andy Barr. I can tell you who he mentions in our interview and all, so Senator Tom Cotton from Arkansas. The op-ed is called our ESG acts. Investors limits your financial risks from left-wing activism. That's not scary. Oh listen oh it sounds like the scoreboard operator. Here's what I wanted false. Here's what I wanted to highlight from this article. Matt the the right the anti-e is Gears have kind of officially boiled the acronym down to this. Here's what they here's the popular talking point now. Okay the e In ESG. This is what they said presses investment funds to bankroll Green energy boondoggles. Oh first of all I could use the word boondoggle. Yeah so I the message now I suppose is that green energy as an industry is just a mess, right? It's just nothing happens it's just it's wasteful. Right, that that's the message know. It sounds more like it's suggesting that green energy is somehow subsidized by the US government and to becoming like some communist plot to take over. It's just a bunch of and they're saying this like in the height of like climate change summer, where there's like heat records breaking daily or Florida. Sea water was just measured at 100 degrees Fahrenheit, 100 degrees, 100 degrees. And that's actually like some of the better news coming out of the headlines. I mean it's delightful to swim in I suppose but not so great, once again. Yeah, they don't mention the boondoggles that the oil and gas industry. Got for the last 200 years, do they? That's not mentioned somewhere. No. And once again the thing that always had scratcher to me is why not just jump into the green energy market and just make a ton of money which is for once. Yeah. And here's now that talking point, About S&G. They say, S&G now they're lumping it together. I don't understand the lump here. And we both know S&G represents several hundred data points, okay? Several hundred. Yeah, and data points that make sense together. No, of course not and here's their takeaway now officially sng push companies to hire and promote employees based on diversity. That means women race, which means black people or other or other non-married factors that's official talking point. This is where we're at with the issue month. This is why we had representative Sean Caston on because of this kind of nonsense. The also said this map. The ESG act requires asset managers to get written permission from their customers. If they take non-financial interests into account when investing, of course they don't, They don't Define. This like difference between financial and non-financial. I gotta, I actually gotta say, it's a, first of all it's only a risk of plan, right? And so Pension funds, right? And when they Define non-financial puneri versus non-pecuniary effectively, it's whatever. I think is financial relevant. Thank you, the definition of materiality is two things. In fact, Caston says this in one of the hearings, it's whether or not a reasonable investor, would use the information to make an investment decision. What would it change their mind if they had that information? So, it's a little bit backwards. Basically, saying like, if I gave you some information, would you have a reasonable investor had made a different decision and, or whether or not a piece of information changes, the total mix of information, like it, if I gave you a new piece of information, does it make all the information look a little bit different in context? Do you know what? All of us for that. Everything. Everything in the world is material that you think how about the fact that you're, you're part of your board includes two cousins, who know nothing about the industry. Or your cowboy hat wearing brother. Yeah, not to mention that these models created at companies like msci, they're they're really meant to just forecast, long-term risk. That's really what they're doing. So I would think that most investors would find that many of these data points. Would be actually extremely useful extremely relevant and making these determinations. But that's a whole nother story, but it is a little bit brilliant. What they've done because they don't Define what non-financial interests are. Specifically. There's a lot of Gray Zone which means there's a lot of room. What they've done. And they've they would force and this isn't hasn't passed. It's not going to pass. They would force you the asset managers and the Pension funds have to get permission from Britain, visual investors all the individual investors to take into account certain metrics, but if they didn't Define what material was with, Hard line. That means every one of those customers has the right to sue the asset manager or the pension fund for taking into account something. They didn't that person doesn't think is financially relevant. And again, this is all the their position is that they are. And they say this that this will help to minimize risk. So again, they're taking the day to use to forecast long-term risk models and suggesting that it actually makes it the Investments, more risky somehow, like, this is their position. They're saying you have too much data too much, you should have less, you have less, all right. The next article I pulled was anti-esg politicians cost their states and cities billions, this is all so something that Sean reference here, some of the main takeaways In Texas anti-free Market legislation could cost taxpayers up to 532 million dollars in higher interest costs within a year. In Indiana, a bill to limit ESG. Investing could cut State Pension returns by seven billion dollars over the next 10 years. Wow, nice. Florida, pensioners. That includes First Responders firefighters and teachers face potential losses up, as much as 10 billion dollars in returns. This list goes on. One in Oklahoma which bans State investment funds from working with companies that use ESG policies, it's just use ESG policies that they lost they just lost their bid to land. A major Volkswagen battery Factory, losing out to somewhere in Canada, which has strong sustainability practices. There are look minimizer winning for investors and they're winning. They're winning the war against having stuff that works. Yes. So those are our ESG month, headline takeaways. And again, I I want to talk about those as an introduction to our conversation with representative Sean, Cassidy because he again, he kind of because he's so aware of the topic in general, he kind of stumbled into both of these articles on his own. So I don't think he stumbled, I might take away from him, is that he read them? He knows them. He related. What? He read my pre-show notes. Are your suggesting? I'm broken to my, he's a regular listener of business. Oh, I like this. I like this storyline, and he's heard us. Talk about the, like things. And he has like, like an intern somewhere. Who's writing everything we say in turn. Go. Isn't that Ari? Or Jesse, I don't feel comfortable answering that. Just see sweet when I just play the interview. All right, let's do it. Here's representative Caston from Illinois, talking about ESG, Sean. Thank you for coming and talking about ESG hearings. Kabuki theater, the bizarre nature of progressive human beings deeply defending Milton Friedman. Like I some I'm a little confused and we actually we're gonna clear up some things. Hopefully are we asked no and less than 20 minutes in 20 minutes we'll clear up every problem great we've had I want to actually start with a one really quick question. Sean you ever heard of ESG before the hearings? I mean, like, was this a thing that was on anybody's radar because my mom didn't know what I did for the last 10 years. So weirdly I did all the, I don't know that I'm a representative sample on this front and before we start, thanks so much for having me. I thought that you picked me for your Specialists show. Yes. So You know, before coming to Congress I spent 20 years as the CEO. Well in the energy industry, 16 is a CEO running companies that had a mission to profitably reduce greenhouse gas emissions. And so we raise our money from people who had missions to do something more than just make money. We always understood that we had to make money as well, but that was sort of the Wheelhouse that I lived in. and when I got to Congress, one of the first bills that I Brought to financial services community that I serve on was to mandate climate disclosure rules from the SEC, on all public companies, that, of course, is now becoming a law because we passed it on the house floor. The Senate never took it up the president never signed it and it was an executive order. What year was this? All right, so we we first passed that in the 116th and 117th. I'm sorry. Not that we didn't pass in the house. 116th, we passed on the house on 117th SEC. Brought it Forward at that point. Last year when we got it forward, it was brought together in stapled in a separate bill that won Vargas had from California to do a broader ESG mandate as well. Because as you guys know there's there's almost no correlation between how one rating agency rates, a company, another. So he said let's just come up with a standard set of rules and so we had sort of been in that wheelhouse and one and I set up the sustainable investment caucus at the end of last term because we felt like we just, you know, we'd spent you know a couple of years, deep in this space had developed some knowledge seemed like something to be focused on and it was super nerdy. I thought it was like, let's create a nerdy cock is where we can bring an interesting speaker's and and then we'll give him happened, right? Yeah, weirdest thing ever. Yeah, so now, you know, the you know, the good news about having spent the time as we were able to, you know, pull together, all the research we've done, and the speakers and the expertise. And I think really arm our our Democrats on the financial services committee with a good set of talking points about what is what are the challenges? What are the opportunities? What are the objections? And and I I think we well, I'll leave you guys to be the judge, but I think we, I think we handled ourselves quite well and we're well informed. I mean, honestly the reason why we reached out to you is because you're one of few people throwing heat, right? Like it does. It seems like you get it as specialty. The fact that we're talking about ESG at all its data, right? Which is already in a wonky to begin with. And having sort of like a nuanced discussion in the form of a wokeism hearing is sort of a mathematic progress, right? Which so it's when I was watching, we watched the hearings and one-on-one the hearing's. I'm listening to your questions and I'm like that guy. Seems like he actually read something like it's very refreshing to have a rep that read a thing before showing up here and understand, at least the data. Yeah. How do you prepare your call for those calls? You don't have a background and weren't CEOs at a company like yours. How do you prepare each other for hearing? Like this is Um well look I mean the the truth of DC is that the you know every every member of Congress has deep expertise in something no members of Congress have deep expertise and everything. Yeah right and so you are you are as good as your staff to fill your gaps are. And you know when we've we've got some terrific staff who went through and sort of pulled, all the research together, got it in some bullet points. So that, you know, we've now, so now every members have got their bullet points in front of them and they can choose like, okay, what are the issues here that I'd like to really follow up on and dig into and and they go from there but it's you know, it's it's some level, it's It's not that different from doing a book report in college, right? You take a lot of notes and you decide what's going to go, you know, in your life they just do. You see hearing like this as an opportunity to speak to like the people like the electorate like us or do you see as an opportunity to debate the other side? How do you position yourself? Well. Let's sort of Step Back From the hearings for a little bit. The, you know, I represent a district that is a very swingy District. I flipped it in 2018. It had been Republican for 50 years. I've never won by anything outside of the single digit. So well. Okay. Which is to say that, like, if this was a winning issue. Yeah, I would have heard that in my district, right? Yeah. No and so, and so a part of what we're trying to do that. I don't let me not be so crass. Yeah, there's eight points billion dollars of money that wants to invest in the SGS. That's a lot of people who give a lot of dance, sure. But politically, right sort of like squishy Centrist of odor. Waiting to hear what position is on woken investment. It's extremely Niche, subject area. Extremely. Yeah and and you know my view is that the way we got here and this informs how we've been trying to think about it on committee. Is that the? There is been a huge Capital flight over the last 15 years. Away from from bad things and into good things and and I say that like, you know, look at like the multiple that a First Solar is getting versus an Exxon Mobil. Yeah. Right. The fastest growing vehicle segment is Evie's, coal is now went from being 50% of the US grid to 16, 17 percent. We make more power from Renewables than from coal on any given day right now. And that's been you know fantastic for getting cleaner energy out for getting you know and I'm focusing on the e at the ESG. Right. You know as our state treasurer Mike's and in Illinois points out you know people don't like to invest in drug dealers. That's why Purdue Pharma does not get you know, right? That's an ESG question as that Capital flight has happened. It's not. This is Called political issue, but that people who suddenly find themselves unable to compete in a free market are going to members of Congress and saying, can you please help me? Because interesting and so so a part of what we've tried to do with this is saying and look I think there's a lot of works on Milton Friedman. I have no known Friedman apologist but But the fact that the party that is ostensibly all about, you know, companies that exist solely to satisfy needs of their shareholders is now saying, I don't like the fact that shareholders are not investing in my preferred company. And I want to try to put some guardrails to them. Yeah, that's a real problem. And we can talk about that politically and how to use five minutes, but I think at a larger level, if we decide we hate capitalism, let's let's at least have that conversation, right? Well, let's not just pretend, we love capitalism. Well destroying. Let me ask you something about that. I mean, that's certainly our perspective from say the side of the left side. Let's just call it. But do you think your colleagues are all aware of that of that reputation of the Republican party? Or are we putting that on them? I don't know. A lot of your colleague's think. In those terms, I What I'm trying to ask to as an aside is do your colleagues from across the aisle? When you're speaking to them after record? Do they refer to this as a bunch of nonsense too? Do they like do you chuckle about that? Like how ridiculous this is at the modern-day Republican party is doing this, or do not have those kind of conversations. There are issues where I find people agree off camera and disagree on camera. This is one where you know, and Andy Barr who is like the poster child, on the other side of this issue, okay? You know, I actually are actually really good friends. Like I like them a lot. He's a nice guy we get along. Well, I think he really believes this stuff. Okay, the and I, you know, and in some ways that's why I'm friends with him. That I don't think he's lying, I think, yeah, more authentic. Yeah, that's true. The, you know, and I think I think there's a view and I don't want to make this about Andy Barr, but so like, I think there's a general view on that side of the aisle that they see all this Capital flight away from bad things. And and view that by saying, well, that's only happening, because government, intervenes. Okay, I perceive myself as a capitalist and so the Clean Air Act is an anti-capitalist thing. I said, just government making it harder to do this. Now that's a slippery slope, right? Because child labor laws are anti-capitalist. You know what OSHA is anti-capitalist, right? And there's all sorts of things. Yeah that's what I was gonna ask. I think there's a confusion about like you know you know the opposite of Regulation is not Anarchy not to mention the irony of a democratically elected official like being against the institution at which they were elected to represent another level of irony. But yeah, I'm I mean, I'm curious like like if this is basically the death throws of the oil and gas industry, right? And the coal industry, fossil fuel writ large where, where at the beginning of those Death Rows in a way, right? Like we still need it for the foreseeable future, but it's a deep Wane. Let's call it, I get like that. How that Lobby would affect, you know, you know, these hearings or Andy Barr anybody else on that side that the aisles deeply held beliefs. And you could look at something like, the EPA but you mentioned like OSHA what I don't get is the lumping in of S&G of ESG, what we're talking about like Dei, I don't know how how do we I, I guess what's really confusing to me, is how we end up in a place, where it's like, I would get it. If you just said, you know, this environmental thing is killing our markets but hiring people of color is killing our markets or like that part one. But that's the woke element of this, right? It's the same thing, right? The I mean, I'm, I had a African-American friend from college who, when, when, after the Tea Party wave, but before Trump, he said to me that he felt like there was just a lot of bad stuff going on the country. And I said, what do you seeing that? I'm not And he gonna, I forget how exactly he put this. But he basically said the Country that that is on a path to realize Martin Luther King's dream is a huge threat to white men of law career, right? And I think yeah and I think that push back in the same way that you have, you know you know if you know if you're on mobile and you can't you can't find your way to more than seven times multiple on earnings. Like the investment Community is saying, I don't trust you with my money. I don't trust you with that position of power. well, the flip side of that is, if you're if you're Don Trump Jr, Nobody would hire you if you had to be evaluated just on the content of your character merit-based Tire? Yeah, excellent. There's a pushback from an A lot of folks like that who are saying, oh, wait a minute. Like I had a certain understanding of what opportunities I had in my life, what I had to do in order to affect to realize those opportunities and that that understanding, you know, is not really there anymore. And it's scrambling my definition and I'm, I could be that. I think that's I think that's a great actually. A great observation because they are The Originators of benefiting on a non-merit based society, right? So they don't want to transfer, you know, if you were told for the first half of your life, if you do X Y and Z good things will happen. You did X Y and Z. And now you're not getting the things that you expected. I think we can empathize that that's disorienting. Other or not. It's fair that somebody else had to do XYZ a b and c, right? And you only had two but I think we can still empathize and some of that sort of frustration. And pain is what's happening. I get it and like and I also think like Vivek is out there on he was on the show he was but he's out there on the you know, GOP campaign Trail. Hammering away, woke ISM and Dei. And when he was on the show he actually used CRT. Like which was the boogeyman what two three years ago as his the reason why we don't see as many female Executives in the Fortune 500 as male Executives, he uses it, it's like an explanation for what is but also it's the enemy and that dichotomy is the one I don't get. Like you can explain the sort of systemic barriers and the really obvious in sort of publicly traded corporate. World right. Our our data the stuff that we do is board data. And we look at like gender diversity on boards, we have data on every company in the world and we can see the power gaps. Women have less power even when they're highly represented and people of color have less power. Even when they're represented, we have the data to show it. And it's also like it's not enough like it's the threat. It feels metaphysical is what it feels like more than it feels like actual, you know, like a Turf War that's actually. Yeah. I mean I mean, I don't know this gets philosophical but I suppose it's You know, anytime that, you know, our economy is has advanced and great leaps. You know, through you know, some great technological innovation or because winter women of the workforce we have always created more than we've destroyed in those transitions but also in every one of those transitions, People who were sort of aware of the destruction, saw the world as this is, this is going to be a zero-sum competition, right? You know, I mean, I have I have too many, you know, times in my own experience where, you know, I remember we had a, I hired a woman to be my head of government Affairs and my last job. And and she took off from eternity, leave and and came back and said, I totally understand. If like, you know, you're going to replacement, I'm gone. I said, why would I do that? And it was, it was a, it wasn't saying this because I was woke, it was just seemed like the decent thing to say and you ended up you ended up getting loyalty not because I did something anything special but because there's this recognition the lake. These are not the ways that someone like me gets treated in a lot of other Empires. Yeah, that made our company better like out of pure breed, I should do that because it allowed us to keep in retain talent. But I think there's a few from a lot of folks that well, if you know, if you, if you hired a, you know, you know, a gay black woman to be on your board. Um, it must have displayed someone of equal Talent, right? Not right, not like that person actually had to like, be really good. In fact, we had the evidence to support that she was in fact, even better than her. She was like better. Yeah. The data suggests that like their academic like academically experientially everything a lot better because the bars are all held higher for you get into those roles. There was a wonderful and this was like, a dozen years ago. It was this analysis of one of this. One of the Scandinavian parliaments that that mandated equal gender participation. And it was about how the caliber of the parliament got better like the number of bills passed the you know the bipartisanship of the bills, any metric you wanted to improved and the paper was called the tragedy of the mediocre man. Because they said that the the challenge it wasn't that it got better because women were better. It was that when you mandated the inclusion of underrepresented groups, you Cherry Picked the best members of those group and you displayed the worst on the other side. Interesting. Yeah. And it's like, oh, man, because they said you're going to see a backlash, right? People who are not, we're not necessarily misogynist, but the only thing they know is they lost their job because of this gender inclusion. Yeah, you know, I mean, I always described to people saying like Who broke the color barrier in baseball, you know, the answer to that question. Who lost their job, because Jackie Robinson on the team, right, no idea, right, right? No, that's true. You. So it's interesting to me you live, this, you're sitting in the hearings right? You're not. You're one of very few. Ex CEOs in a political hearing, asking questions about capitalism. Like in part of, taking part of this Kabuki theater, what is it like to sit sort of there and know you? You experience a lot of this as in as a CEO, you dealt with climate issues, you dealt with diversity, like the conversation around diversity and hiring and talent, and things like that. You'd think about them. Do you get frustrated sitting there like, thinking to yourself? You guys? What are you talking about? Like, I did it. You have no experience in this, except like the three bullet points that you got from Heritage Foundation this morning. Look at, like, all of us. I get frustrated every day that my wisdom is not celebrated. We're celebrating it today. There's gonna be cheers in the background when we put this on the internet. No, I mean, I think, Like, I don't, I don't get frustrated by it, except in the sense that the most people who get into Congress, get into Congress by by some background in the law, which is fine, like it's totally appropriate. If you're going to write laws, it's useful to have a law degree. There's many a day, I wish I would have taken a constitutional law class at some point in my life, where I was tasked with, with, you know, taking out the defend it. The but at the same point like a background in law is something where you are trained to represent your clients not to represent the truth that, you know, to figure out what to elevate. What to suppress in order to get a desired outcome, a background in business or a background in The Sciences. You are taught that there are certain laws that are enviable, right? You can you can use your marketing department to get around the corners but the laws of Economics, the laws of physics like you can't really debate those. And and what's frustrating is that the When you have folks who have never dealt with a lot, except in the context of one, that could be negotiated and modified, you end up having conversations about. Can we just modify the laws of Economics? Can we modify the laws of physics? And no, you can't accept that in Congress. If you know, if if 51218 members of the house that gravity isn't reality isn't real, right? Would not encourage you to jump off a building but you can vote and you can pass along that's as gravity in real. What is that you pointed this out in the hearing? Some of your Quotes in the hearings are fire that you pointed out in the hearing. You said you mentioned like Indiana and their ESG band Kentucky and their ESG band and the and the expected costs of that, right? Which is basically isn't that the same thing is basically, saying gravity is not real, it's jump off this Cliff. Yeah. Well, I think those are just expected costs. Those are real cost, right? Because they they took Supply out of their Market. They said, okay, we used to have all these funds that were, you know, that were available to Pension funds. We're going to take them out and basic supply and demand turns out fees go up, right? Because competition and so there are actually now, you know, paying billions of dollars, they didn't have to pay just in higher deals. Setting aside, like do you get a better return to get a worse return? I don't know, it's a market but that's not really what this is about I because because when we talk about ESG data that Matt, you alluded to is that all our industry really offers is like hundreds of more data points to analyze the market, right, to analyze a company, whatever, which I think most people would be thrilled by, so I don't Know that this is the money, the losses, the return. It's not really what this is about. The language is kind of more of a holy war kind of language or is you were alluding to some kind of a turf war or something else. Like this is a cultural War. This is not about the bottom line and I don't think. Yeah no and there is also, I think I think there's a There has always been a Schism in financial regulation between doors. Do you prioritize the interests of investors or the democratization of access to markets, right? Push too far on one line and you've got a bunch of people losing their shirt because they don't understand what they're investing in pushed you for the other way and you know, only the uber wealthy can even participate in these wealth opportunities. And so there's some balance that's their It is, it has become very partisan at least of late that there's they're very few Republicans who will advocate for investor protections. and so when you, when you have something like ESG that says investors, want want the following information disclosed in a consistent format on the 10ks that's that's an investor protection angle and in the current Congress Standing up for investors has become a very part of something. Um right. Which honestly and part of it is probably because anyone who's passing the laws doesn't bear, the necessarily bear the brunt of the cost. So we see this in like when we look at board members and irony is for a decade we were talking about how companies were the opposite of woke. We were the problem was Data suggested, it was all the opposite and we would say things like you know company XYZ said a 2050 at zero Target and they're the average board. Age is 68 years old and just buy mortality rates. You're all dead right? Like by the time 24 minutes, how about the Black Rock just kind of invariably supports management, right? They don't 96, they were never in our in our world. They were never a woke thing, right? So there is an, there is a problem. There's a incentive Gap, right? Like pass along Indiana, it says Bania SG, but you don't bear the brunt of the Rays taxes. Years from now to cover the costs of limiting Supply, to your point, I want to we have two minutes left of your time and I want to waste it doing a stupid game. Are you up for a like I have to be fast. Yeah, we'll do like a speed round. These are sort of yes no questions and they are wonky governance questions for the most part. Are you, are you game for a really short game? Yes. Yes, love it hesitantly. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm here now, I guess I don't even I don't even know her game for the game. Yeah. All right, Damien take, take the game away. Go ahead. All right, the game really is. Are you in or are you out? Alright. Are you are you with this potential corporate governance change or are you out and you you have even more expertise than we were hoping for so yeah honestly I feel I feel stupid. Now how about this first one, I won't get to all these eliminate all multiple class, stock structures, one share, one vote. Let's let the the alternative democracy that is voting on public corporations. I know. Equate to the normal democracy. Should we do, are you in on that idea for public companies for public health? Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's an endorsement. All right, I like that. How about like, like, some of our countries in Europe, some of our colleagues Denmark, France, Germany. How about requiring us boards to have at least one employee representative on the board. I love it. Then we can finally finally undo the ghost of Milton Friedman. Yeah, okay this is a big one. Now who was one of your experts is actually one of the co-founders of the original company that I worked for here in Portland. Maine. So she was fantastic. He was fantastic. How about make all the votes at the meetings? All the you know Sam pay votes votes against directors, Charlotte proposal, make them all binding if the shareholders passed the vote It's a binding vote. I like this one that one. Oh, tell us why? Having having worked in environments where where? I was, where I was the king, but got the input of everybody being a decision. Yeah. And worked in environments that were purely parliamentary democracy. I think it's important to have a king, okay? I think those votes should be loud and they should be listened to and they should be accountability, but I don't know that you want just a just a pure, a pure vote on respect that. I'm the CEO of our company. I actually, yeah. Let me ask you this, where you all the chair of your board, Sean at your company, know. Okay. Intentionally or was that part of your guidelines or why were the chair? Well, that's probably a longer story. Okay, somewhere in between, that's, let's see, one more, that's a minute over and we'll let you go free, I'll leave it at that. How about the last one? Being eliminate all combined CEO chair roles at public corporations that the CEO should not set the agenda of the of the board that is supposed to you know, provide fire the CEO. Yeah, how about that? I think maybe even goes to farther. I think the chair probably shouldn't have an executive role. Okay, I love it. I love it. Representative, Sean Caston. Thank you so much. I know we're a minute over actually, honestly, a week I could do this for another like five hours. So we may go back to your comms Department, asked for more of your time, some point in the future. This is an awesome conversation. Thanks so much, and we'll be in touch again. All right, thanks for thanks for staying woke. Okay, thank you. Thanks. John. Today's show was sponsored by ESG. Your ESG data provider all, so sponsored by free, float, analytics.com, a few. Thanks to rep cast in for not just showing up and not just informed, and not just like, for schooling us. I love that he gave us zero talking points. He didn't spend his time, just one thing we played again, we did a lot of pre-show planning. What are we gonna do if we just throws regurgitated talking points? That's just really boring. Yeah. He treated us like intelligent human beings. All right? Stop it, you're making me feel them just thinking that was just, and he knew his ship. So thank you to repast, and hopefully he'll come back until Friday when we wrap. Goodbye.