Transcript
Where's the Christmas music? Are you? Not even you don't even celebrate Christmas. This is a Hanukkah song. When You Christmas music live from a Christmas box of ESG shaped socks from an AI sheep actually that, that reality is kind of here now. It's an all new terrific Tuesday edition of business pants. Joined by analysts whole Matt mcgarden. How cozy is it to snuggle with an AI sheep? I don't think it's so bad on us Lee. Really know why not? I don't talk about today. Is Larry Fink, eggnog latte. I'm sticking with the like, that's not a pun that's just a little word play, Larry Fink. Eggnog latte. Called December 23rd. 2025 a 20-25 year. End quiz. Is there anybody cheering for that? No, I gotta tell you. I worked long and hard on this and stupid as it is. There there are a lot of things to learn in here a sensibly. Oh, based on fact, it's all I looked it. I looked at all of our shows from this year and this is these are questions from from January to today So well, I will tell you I ran every headline. So for those of you who listen to The Show for those of that one you that listen to the show. Just um, I downloaded every headline that Damian pulled this year and there were every single one. There were close to 20,000 headlines that you pulled over the course of the year. That's not an exaggeration. That's right. And I ran it through Ai. And I said, what were the major themes of the year? We'll see if your quiz show represents what AI pulled out. Well, that's a shame too because I was gonna categorize my because then I thought I'm actually gonna jump it up, so it doesn't get too. You know, we don't get stuck doubly better and this is a jumbled up. All right. Well, let's see, I don't know if you're gonna make any sense of, let's see if you can make sense of my quiz overall, I don't know that there are the well I'll let you figure it out. Yeah, let's do this. Is their score. Do is just, I'm actually gonna give you a point for each. Correct answer. And then I have a little scoring rubric at the end. I'll anoint you Something a title. I get her quiz. Yeah my way my victory is a title. See how well you remember? All these from our shows. You ready? Do we have music for this? No, we don't have music for this. All you have is scary Halloween music. Anyway, that's that's what I got. Oh, by the way, our show, today's being sponsored by free flow analytics, analytics.com. The only platform measuring board power connection to Performance for free. Sadly. Sadly, I didn't actually include any Platform questions, I didn't use any of the data from the platform for this quiz. It's just, it's all news driven. I feel sad about that. I don't say it out loud or sponsor will stop sponsoring us potentially so don't download. Let's start with the true and false question. True or false? Nearly half of directors, think they're bored ads. Insufficient value. That's like a double negative nearly. Half of directors. Think the board that they're on. Yeah and insufficient sufficient. And that's nearly half. Oh my God. Yeah that is true. I know that's true. Yeah give yourself a yeah, that's true. Play the game. You can play the buzzer game over there. Oh what percentage of directors said their board adds no value at all and I'll give you choices here no value at all. I'm, can I give you a number? I'm just, you know and no I don't but I have to get this. I'm gonna get 22%. Well, you know what? Just ring the bell. The answer is, the answer is 18%, but but that's close to I was just really bad. Yeah, so that's one out of five directors and on average that I would say, that's two directors per us board, right? Yes. Yeah, about nine, ten directors, roughly roughly. So look around the room know people you at all. That's their words. Not our words. I want, I want every director is listening to the show to stop. I want you to look at like go to the website of the company and look at all the pictures of your colleagues and try to guess. Which two of you think that your job is pointless on this board and you get paid for in a thousand dollars a year to do it. A female CEOs, where are we? The Fortune 500? What's the percentage of female CEOs? 2024 it dropped. Uh, I believe it was, it was like 13, ish percent, man. I'm gonna go with 7%. I cannot give you a wrong answer in that one you're closer with 13 the internet claims. It's currently at 11 percentage pretty Pretty frequently, but but it's sad that that should be a correct answer because that should be close enough. But really, I think that when you get this low, I think it's what we're literally talking about one percent difference. Actually makes a difference in these percentages. Unfortunately that's sad. It's a sad reality. So I'm Gonna Knock give you a point on that one. Oh okay, here we go. And I can do multiple choices if you prefer women. Hold 24% of CEO pipeline rolls, right? You got that? This is, this is based on, are we calling neosport? Because we know that CEO and CFO 10 to actually be the pipeline's. Well, this is, this is accordingly. Oh really. According to research reports, yeah, they hold 24% of CEO pipeline roles. Yeah, that I think you're right. That would be certain sea, sweet rolls but but only what percentage of promotions? Oh, so they have 24% of the pipeline was so what percent how many of them actually get into the it could be higher. It could be the same. What do you think? Oh, it's definitely not the same and it's definitely lower its 10% 10. I'll give you the correct answer 8%. Oh see. Ah, Think about that. Yeah. But what could that but what what? Other than straight massaging or sexism, or what is that? They hold 24% of the pipeline roles but represent only 8% of those promotions that become CEO and and unfortunately oftentimes it's like in a crisis situation. It's like in a glass. Yes it's a textual. Yeah. That that's a damning statistic, let's move on. But yeah go ahead before you move on that that that's the role that they have is not as next CEO. The role that they have is Mom, it's group mom. They need some adults in the room and so 24% of the CEO pipeline is actually adults and they don't want the adults running the company. They want that the kids run to come, who's they the combinations? Founders shareholders boards, right? Like oh and the Xeo themselves. I mean, when Brian Cornell goes from, you know, like have you Seen like the the target board your photography. Yeah. So Target's board is like Percent like women and people of color. It is a it is a wonderfully diverse board leadership too, right? You look at the leadership team. It's almost all women. In fact, only, two of the, eight leaders are white men. Those two are Brian, Cornell and the guy, Brian Cornell chose to be the next CEO. Everyone else is a woman or a person of color that is the insanity, right? Like the, those other people are not even considered for the job. They're just like they have their role. You be mom, you just take care of this thing. The boys will handle this from now and that's why it's like that. And you're speaking to part of the biggest problem is that this succession planting is a joke. It's, it's often a failure by some committee or it's a failure by the CEO who gets to pick his his own successor, which is what again, which is probably why that number is so low. Why only 8% of those promotions are from women because the previous CEO is picking another guy I guess. Right? I don't know. Look, we have we have we put lipstick on this pig by called Nam committee and the Nom committee. Universally on boards. The Nom committee gets a stipend for being on a member of the nomination committee, your job and the nomination committee is to handle succession. What ends up happening, is the CEOs choose their own successors. And then nomination, committees job is to call up a third party advisor and say, give me four more names so that we can say that we look for somebody and that's it and then you get an extra like 50 grand for that or more options. It's a joke, it's a joke investors. You should be pissed off that. Anybody on the Nam committee gets any extra money giving that we know the CEOs, just choose their own like successors. 90% of the time, the producer's whispering in my ear to move it along, move the quiz. She has a plane to catch. She's going to Iowa for Christmas. Oh, that's a horrible. Doesn't it? Which tech company or I guess I gave it away, it made a little bit easier. I actually wrote which company which company plans to automate Up to 90% of its privacy and societal risk reviews using AI which company you understand the question? Very meta. Oh, there you go. Very meta. That's it. Don't look any further. I'm, you know I would have struggled with that one because I feel like it could have been any of them. But why do you? Why was it so obvious? Well, because very Zuckerberg in yeah Zuckerberg in its first of all like no one can challenge Zuck, right? Like he'll just come out and say something like that and and second of all in the move to trumpism which like and hyper-masculine Tech bro, ism ipam is the wrong way, it's like hyper teenagers him, right? Like it's funny because Sheryl Sandberg in the news this week for saying that the the masculinity of the tech Bros is one as a major societal problem. It's a huge problem like there and Sheryl Sandberg, former former CEO at at meta. She knows because she knows she knows like she knows Zuckerberg was basically a little boy. He's man child and back in. He was kind of he was acting a little bit more like he cared about Society. Now, he's just pissing on everything. Well, yeah, now we realize I have dual class shares and no one can stop me. So I can just go hang out, but automate up to 90% of privacy in societal. Sounds like AI. Yes. Sounds like something you would do. That's all why did BlackRock get removed from Texas's? Boycott list? Was it? Because of a legal challenge? Was an accounting error. Was it because they promised not to say climate out loud or was it because of their ESG retreat? After they pulled out of like, g-fans, like the climate groups, I'm gonna go with the climate one. Not, well, that's kind of the same answer. Yeah, it's an ESG Retreat. It's the same answer. I mean, like that, seems like a headline writer, you know, calling everything he is cheese. So, all they had to do is all he had to do is just because of the State of Texas, they all they had to do is just like change their, their core beliefs. Their they had all, they did, they threw their principles into a volcano and that was enough. I mean, that's kind of sad. No, but look, you know, unbeknownst to Texas. Yeah, they did not stop buying the data. Right. So they have no beliefs but lots of data now sticking with our 2025 quiz. Again, these are questions from all across the year from shows from all across the year. Here's here's one that we covered earlier. Why did Pepsi Say it delayed its Net Zero targets from 20 to 2050. I have some choice for you. The board miscalculated emissions. No shareholders, voted against climate goals. Definitely not a change in climate accounting rules or the systems around us weren't ready. That's it. The systems around. Us weren't ready. That's a direct quote. They blame everybody else. Everything literally everyone else and this is 15 years before 2040. For those of you who are too stupid to do the math. I know the other hand, I'm smart enough to do the math. I didn't even need paper for that. I just did the top really you did that. They the quote is the systems around us and quote and that I mean come on. I mean what is that really? What is that? I mean it's fabulous, it's the great can't you just play that on everything like that for every suppose our stock price went down 20% this year because the systems around us were not ready to price the stock correctly, right? Like the kids, you just say that about everything. Well speaking of which how about this next one, true or false UK? Financial Regulators scrapped mandatory Dei rules because quote, Dei paperwork is annoying and quote What is that? The question. Oh, that's true or false. That why did they scrapped mandatory Dei rules? Because now I think that's false. That's actually you're wrong. The UK is true. UK Financial Regulators scrapped mandatory. Dei rules sighting regular Tori burden. They claimed. It was too much effort essentially, to fill it all the paperwork that was the excuse. They used to bail on Dei too much. It was too much, Matt. It's just too much. I mean, like, it's hard to count the people that you've hired at your company, it's system that you've hired them with, right? They don't want to overburden these companies. They don't have like legal departments or in turn to can do this. Look, you're making a joke but they're exhausted. It's time for them to take a nap and stop to all the work. They're supposed to be doing a paid to do. Not to mention that. Like, I've been talking to some people who used to work at the mothership as you call it. Yeah. One thing that maybe we're not aware of because we haven't been on a corporation for a long time is that they have They now have internal AI systems that employees are pushed to use to kind of help them with all kinds of queries and questions that they're doing that. They could just use their own AI system to help them fill out the paperwork, right? I mean, these companies have this set up already like combing through their data and combing through right? Wait, is that AI system like Like is it basically like internal therapist? Like if you have a problem? You could do that too. Yeah that that's why does my why does my my smell like tuna fish, get rid of just get rid of people, just stop it now like just, why hesitating, let's stay with ti the new. The new acronym, JP Morgan prefers over d e. I is, I'll give you some Choice. Here, is it D? And I Know every day. Yeah. They replace d e. I is it D and I is it EDI? Is it stupid? Is it d o i or is it just please stop asking is that. This is a dumb one. Yeah, this one's impossible for me. I think it's e d. I think, oh, I got that one wrong, too. Oh, I like, when you get a monk, this is a hard one. You wouldn't remember this. They replaced Dei diversity, Equity inclusion with DOI, diversity opportunity, and inclusion. So they got rid of equity. Oh, that's right. I remember this, right? Like they should be Equity with artwork. We're not. We just want to provide opportunities for some people, but not others. We're not opportunity. Yeah. But wouldn't you think you'd get rid of diversity and inclusion first and keep Equity? What's wrong with Equity? I don't get what is so bad about Equity? I isn't that the whole basis of our concept of our constitution or was Declaration of. Yeah, go ahead made this Joker. This argument at the time, isn't the? I and the D the irrelevant ones. The E is what you want. Equality for everybody like you're hiring. You want them to have equal. Opportunity you are there inside you want to equal opportunity to Promotions you want like equality is what you're going for, right? Like that's the end State equality. The diversity in the inclusion part are like Immaterial in some ways to the equality. I mean, you get diversity through by having systems that aren't biased and equality. Here's the problem, I guess, because the, it goes back to the Declaration of Independence in the United States, where they made this pronouncement about about Equity about equality, but you know, but the fine print of that statement, of course is all men are created equal so that maybe that's why this gets confusing to Jamie dimon, right? Because How do you? Because clearly now, there are women. I suppose at JP Morgan and Chase, right? He's women. So it's like, how do you how do you wrestle with this great American idea? That all men are created equal? What do you do with that? You get, get rid of equity, right? Get rid of. Yeah, I know I'm saying anymore which Next question, which word? Became unsafe during the federal climate language purges. At the beginning of the year, there was a incredible amount of language purging going on and the federal government women coincidence. Okay. I have some choices with you for you, but I'll give you the correct answer for that. Actually, that was, but was sustainable. I was sustainability climate or resilience All of them. Yeah, I I didn't give you the D and which is all of them, you coward. Yeah. That's right. It is all of them. So yeah, they purged us sustainability climate and resilience resilient seems like a weird one to purge. Yeah, I think you need resilience as a nation as a solution if you are talking about the actual climate. Not like the thing, that people pretend as a hoax climate change if you're saying something like, oh the climate outside, it's warm, you know, like or you know, What I'm a climatologist. Do they just get cut? Like somebody who's studies the changes of the climate? Like they just got which CEO criticized ISS and glass Lewis as incompetent quote, unquote, James You know what? I thought. That was the answer, too. It was actually Elon Musk did it too? It was Elon Musk. Did Jamie do it, too? I think, I believe Jamie did it too. I, I'm a person's look into that one, but I'm gonna give you a wrong answer. That the reporting I have says, it's Elon Musk. Jamie did have some Choice words against ISS and glass Lewis. Uh, no fact. I the producers of have looked this up. Yes, quote, they are incompetent, Mr. Diamond said at a black retirement Summit, they are owned by the ngos. Okay, so both said it. Yeah, yeah. They both said it. So I get for that. So I'm gonna take one away from the test writer. Yeah. Which phrase best describes modern CEO accountability. Okay, okay. Yeah, really. Which word I should say, which one? Okay. Well, let's listen to the words. Okay. Robust Okay, improving optional. Or decorative. Oh, Now, this seems like this is coming from just the test writer's head, not sure. I don't know. Yeah. And if it's coming from the test writers head. Optional seems like the one you might read in a news story. Decorative is the one that the test writer would write. I'm gonna go with optional. Yes, you're right. It's optional and now I know, I actually think optional is the best answer because I don't even think they pretend, well, I know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they do pretend that there's accountability for except for the fact, you know, because the 10 years are kind of short. And, and if you if you date improperly in your organization, you do get fired. I think, but that's about it, right? But you still walk away with money and the equity like, you don't actually, there's no actual accountability you still get rehired pretty quickly, but they pretend That there's accountability right, like they they do. Make you step down, you stay on as a chair, I guess. But still that's a depressed says that you're fired. Even though you stay like, Brian. They pretend that Brian Cornell is leaving Target. So is that their version of accountability, like He's? He's stepping down as CEO, keeping all his Equity, but becoming chair but that's and get Target. Is like an executive? Yes, but Target is like holding him accountable right by replacing him. Yes, he's accountable. Yes. So it made his decorative but I think optional is the optional is better. Yeah. All right. That's a stupid one. How many women? This is a tough one. I I struggled with the research on this one so may so there is a little bit of loose area here. So correct me if I'm wrong, if you know more, how many women have founded and led founded and led a Fortune 500 company and and that's not now that's forever. And the history of the United States, how many? And again, like, this is a bit of a tough one. And even though the answer is beautiful of AMD is one. That's not true. Is that did she, did she found that I am? Oh, maybe she didn't. Um, I I don't think she founded I thought, no, she did. She joined the company in 2012. She joined. She was appointed and 2012. You're right about that. Oh, no honey. How many of founded in LED? It none, I'm going with none. Well, okay, I'm gonna give you the answer that I found and will you can help me determine whether you got the score, right? Technically, the answer is one but it could be a half. Her name is Marion Sandler. She's born right here in Maine. The great state of Maine. She founded a company called Golden West Financial. However, she was the co-founder and co-ceo with her husband. Oh, I remember this. No. Herbert, you know, this is not but still on the books though. You know. Still on the books. Isn't gonna have that one. No, she would never get funding if the man wasn't there. That's not that doesn't count. You know, what, a woman by herself. I looked into this this case too. And her her full name is actually Marion Sandler ashur. And ashur is actually a big name in Maine. There's a osher map library, right down the street from me at the University. This is a big, big money name in Maine. Oh, sure. And part of the money that she actually got to help file in this company was from her brother too, so it's like you're probably right? So you're you're okay, so I'm gonna go with I struggle this one I'm gonna say correct, I was correct. Okay, I really struggled with him. I really want to give Mary and credit here. But look, I'm not saying she didn't work hard that she's not like leading the company, I'm not saying that stuff. I'm saying the point of this is, there are zero women who without being attached to their husband. Their dad, their Uncle, their brother, like have gone out and founded a company because they can't get the funding. No one will help them. No one supports them and then they got to stay in charge the whole time. After founding the company and it goes public and it becomes a Fortune 500 company. That that's that's a zero that's incredible though. Wrong with the my first guest because I Lisa Sue. I was I yeah, you're right it. Founded AMD. So I'm wrong but I'm going with right, isn't it? Incredible that despite the fact that I did find a woman who kind of qualified, we still could argue that it really isn't the, I mean, this is the dire state of funding for companies in this country, right? I mean that's what a dire. Indictment against her entire system that even the one woman I could, I could dig up is, you know, she did it with her husband, but what I, I still think counts, but I hear what you're saying. I think it may be done. Look, you're right about it. Being Dyer. I mean, if you want better evidence of systemic bias, there isn't any right. Like it wouldn't even If the answer were four, it's still dire but we couldn't even really find one. It's not statistically possible. If the system was remotely Equitable that there would be zero like legit solo female. Founders of a Fortune 500 company in history, not like right now. Ever, that's psychotic. That's like because I believe that Marion Sandler is no longer with us. I mean, I think that this is I'm sorry. Mary and to this is a woman, she died and work 2012. So this was something that happened a long time ago. You know? I mean this is not even current so okay so let's stay with the theme what percent true or false Board, gender diversity representing women on boards, has plateaued around 30%. Oh, that's true. It actually receded. It's slightly down? Yeah, I'll give you the that's a correct answer. What do you why do we think? Why would remember back at the mothership? I mean, we're going back, at least 10 years now. Um, There were these goals, these goals 30% was like this target, this suck a few organizations were bold enough to say 40%, which I think actually represents true Equity, but there were these initial goals the 30%. There are a lot of organizations that even had the 30% in their names, right? Yeah. Why do we think we plateaued at 30? What, what about right? Do we think it just represents some kind of for a lack of a better pun like lipstick on a pig. Like, no, it's just pretend we're pretending that there's So first of all, gender representation. Well, the number was always like you need to go unless around something to, for a push. But the number is not does not actually mean equality because what the free flow analytics data suggests is, the average, you know, Howard Gap, meaning of power that women have on these boards is negative, right? Like more women on their body count and it comes from the idea that if the boards are roughly have 10 people, you need at least three. People of any underrepresented subset to actually have enough power to do anything. But let's think about. Let's think about like the implications, right? Like it was a slow, very slow. Multi-decade rise to get to 30%. Women just women. We're not talking about people of color talking about women your body count on the board, right? As soon as you hit that two things happen, investors no longer like are voting against nomination, chairs and Nom committees for not having 30% women, right? Like that happens less, and less and less. So the pressure's off and number two, you invite the backlash because you quote one, didn't you like the 30%? They only hit two years ago. It was like in the very recent past and it directly coincides with the rise of anti woke. Anti-conservative ideology it represents like women have achieved. Some low level of access to a boardrooms where they didn't have access before. They don't have power necessarily and they got away with us good way of stating its access not power and and the reality is as soon as people look around and like even boards themselves do you remember the PWC does board surveys every single year and two or three years ago directors themselves when surveyed said they were tired of talking about diversity on the board gender diversity. Generally said, we're tired of it, right? Because it's enough already, right? Like we hit some Milestone. Can we stop talking about it? It's like I'm going to Bamba got elected US president. It's like racism is dead. Oh racism has got to be dead because all black guy got a job, right? Like so I think that's it. That's what. And it's not just gonna Plateau. The stats are actually staggering that the number of new women getting, or women getting oh, open sheets has dropped. Exponentially. Like now now we're not putting women in the board seats because all to your in the men are expanding the boards and adding more wet, more men to your point and to use an analogy. You have, you do have to keep your eyes on the prize. You have to keep your your foot on the pedal. You you can't let down in this fight you because then the numbers will start to go down. You have you have to stay fighting for David for access. The reason why you you there's such a focus on just the numbers and the reason why people are going to hate that and fight against it and it's becomes a numbers game and and then people like is diversity, just the numbers game is because no one's focused on the people themselves. If you focused on whether or not, the people are qualified for the job, then you wouldn't have a problem about needing 30% women because they're highly qualified for the job. Just give them the fucking job. But you don't have that what you have is a numbers game and then the pushback and we're going to see numbers received and I like If it doesn't turn around 2026 and I don't mean, like, adding more women into the board. But like, actually saying, the directors are, who are these people? What are their skills? What do they do? Are they, should they have this job? You're never going to get where you want to get to. Anyway, that's the prize. Not 30% women. The prize is you look at my fucking resume for, get my genitals. Just I know I'm qualified for this job. I'm no, I'm at least if not more qualified than the Dopey white guys in this room. What percentage? Okay, so that number 30% of boards were about about 30% of boards represented by women. What percentage of Russell 3000 boards have 50% women? That's really not too far from 30%, really? That could be like a couple of directors here or there, right? Like so what percentage, two directors, what percentage of Russell 3000 boards have 50% women actual parody? I, I'm trying to think of the data, I think it's like, like, 9% 11%. I'm good, I'll give you a point. I was gonna give you choices on this one and the choice I was gonna give you were six 15 and 22. The answer is actually a bit more dire than what you stated, but it's 6%. That's close. Yeah, give yourself a wrong answer there. I'm gonna give myself a wrong answer. I should that's one that I should know. Looking at 60%, which is, I know 6% 9%, I overstated it by 50%, but the men funny enough, the men have called that number enough to declare Victory. They think that that that's a, that's fine. That's fine. We're fine. We're done based on all that true or false. Me 6. The, the famous spy organization in the UK. The am I six has it? They appointed? Its first female leader in 2025. That's true or false. That's true. That's true. So am I sick? Got there before Corporate America essentially? Am I sick? The famous spy. They can manage to have a woman leading. I'm sorry there's no bigger. Like in your face the Mexico, having a Jewish climate scientists leading the country before the us even Votes for me. 6% women in Congress. Much less. The president's presidency. Her name is Blaise Metro Welly, am I six Good? Witch ESG metric. Disappeared first from earnings calls, was it diversity statistics emissions targets or human rights language? Oh, I think the human rights language only when they're talking about the Human Rights Campaign, which got linked to diversity, metrics would they scrub that? But the human rights concept, they wouldn't necessarily scrub. I'm going to go diversity. It's got to be diversity, right? Oh, you climates a closed. I'm going to go with diversity. You didn't you didn't like fall for the obvious trap here, which is, of course, it's all of them. They've all disappeared from all the. Yeah, that's yeah, so that's a wrong answer. The most common excuse to use for oversized boards. I like this one. Is it? Complexity. You know, it's a, you know, it's a complex company and we need we need Alexa, the boy, they're not like, oh, we're indulging in complexity, give us a bigger board, is it Global reach? You know, the company International Company needs? A lot of is it quote, unquote, we need all these people. They're just that's it. Just we need more, is it? Founder feelings the feelings of the founder. They really like having a lot of people around which is it. What's the excuse? You say, for these ridiculously oversized boards, were nothing can get done. The problem makes the power of the CEO even stronger because it's like, how can you even make a decision? The only ridiculously sized board with run by a Founder that I can think of are well too, I guess would be Zuckerberg. Meta. And Zuckerberg isn't a big board. It's 13. People is it that much? Yeah, they just he had a Dana White and he just added somebody else. Like he said, like you know, from these. Yeah. He just I don't remember her name, but the woman from the Trump Administration, just stepped down after eight months. She lasted eight months and she's gone. Well, I mean, that's, that's actually too long and Oracle only because they have CEOs and Co Vice chairs along with sorry. Excuse, no. No, I'm really in it out because I can't think of any I'm going to go with. We need all these people. Well, I I think that's kind of the right answer. It's kind of a joke answer. The answer they give is complexity but yeah, I know, right? That's what they're gonna say. Yeah. But so, they mean is like, I want these people around, we need Them. I'm gonna give you a point. Yeah, I'm giving myself credit for that which industry saw the biggest role back in ESG commitments. Energy Finance consumer packaged. Goods Tech Oh, Tech was loud. Biggest rollback and ESG commitments. Tech was loud but they didn't set a lot of commitments. Anyway, they were kind of like pseudo commitments and I don't know that they've I'm gonna go with energy. Actually it's Finance. Is it really? Yeah, Finance. Oh well, I guess like every one of them dropped out of everything, like they dropped everything this year, they just dropped everything, but they could and they and so you gave out, well, I won't give it away because it's actually the next question. All right, do the next question. What's the fastest growing category of CEO? Compensation? Is a cash bonuses, stock options, performance shares or retention State? Yeah, you didn't give it away. Yeah, but I mean, I ironically it is has been cited, that is the financial industry. Who was ditching, ESG commitments. And yet this in the 2025, which the year of these Stupid. You know, shareholder unfriendly, retention award, just throwing cash and Equity out there at their CEOs and NEOS. Like if if you took a holistic view of the finance industry, going back to 20 like 19 Wright pre-pandemic, through the pandemic up to now you'd recognize that the finance. The whole sector is really just a chameleon sector. It's whatever everyone's talking about is the thing that they're gonna do. So they were all about George and Jamie Diamond kneeling in front of you, idiot, and, and diversity, and all the stuff and, including BlackRock voting for more predatory proposals that are climate than ever in 2020, and 22 and then immediately on regime change and push back, they just back off all of it. They don't care. They're they have no principles, no morals, know that they're not in it for that they're in it literally, as long as you keep their money with them and they can grow their ass. That's that's all that it matters. So so yeah, drop a drop of commitment who gives a shit I'll get more assets. So Jamie dimon literally to you that my daughter uses all the time, literally took a knee for George Floyd, in a, in a bank and outside of the bank, I think it's a picture outside of the bank of Buffalo and now, essentially, he is stood up and his wife, the dust from his knee. So now what he did, maybe even got the pants like, pressed or dry cleaned like that's what? Yeah, right. He also said that Democrats are idiots. Yeah. Like morons he called the moron. Sorry. Well, that all happened, like just a few years. I mean, 40 years. Only only, luckily, only former questions is 25 for 25. Chris Christmas quiz? Is that what? This is Christmas? Because what's the most common? Dei Rebrand in 2025. What are they calling? Are they calling a belonging? Are they calling it culture? Are they calling it Talent strategy? Or are they calling it risk management? How are they rebranding Dei talents strategy? Because it feels Messenger to Craddock. That's why you say it. That way strategy. Uh, what actually drives CEO pay upward during stock declines, is it? Fear. Board discretion. Retention risk. Or peer benchmarking. So weird question, this is a weird question. We're just gonna come from, I don't even worse cash from came from. I thought I had to get the 25. I guess that one got in there. I mean, if you're gonna go into the pure piece of the that, that answer, that that's like a nuanced. Super, so for people who don't know, like you read like the compensation tables, and they choose a peer Group, by which to compare this, your CEO at this, your company to other CEOs at other companies. And that peer group is not chosen, like based on some commonly accepted sector, they say it's chosen based on who they would compete with for CEO talent and they can just name any company and that right? Like, they're funny examples of like, you know, like a railroad that has like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg on the, you know, in it, because that's who they compete with for town, you can make it up. So, that's a really nuanced answer. I'm not gonna go with that because that's seems nuts that you Know that one. But wait, answer. But here's what the the quiz writer has just whispered in my ear with the what what the quiz writer is trying to get to here? Is that what? And what the question means is that even though the companies are not doing well, the companies, the stock is declining. It's bad for shareholders. Why? How could CEO keep going up? 10% this year? How how is it? That that's possible. Right. What why wouldn't it be going down based on the fact that the company is struggling or how? How does it remain a flow? How does it go up? So I mean, part of the answer is the fact that they get paid, whether they're the worst performer or not, that's what the answer is trying to get to. Yeah, so makes that possible because they said a threshold of 75% pay, even if they're in the bottom quartile of Paul. So all of the above, I would just give you. The I'll just give you a point, but it is pure benchmarking, which is what you're saying. Well, it's what you're saying. If if you're targeting, if it's based on quartiles, the quartiles are referring to peers, right? They're referring to the people in your industry. The people in the index, like you can't lose is the point, right? You can't, it doesn't it. No matter what earnings are down. Stock is down, it doesn't matter. The put the pay is gonna go up because you're comparing it to each other, right? And there it just you can't lose Mike, you know, like I remember when we were back at the mothership I did like a short paper on peers or a podcast on it at the time and I desperately desperately wanted a data set. It was somebody who went through every proxy statement and wrote down. What the company said, their peers were and watched them change because I, I did it on a really small scale, it like a half dozen companys, and they changed their peers without telling you why, or how, or how those were chosen. Like one year, they'll have the group and then the next Year they'll have a group with a couple of different ones in there and you're like, well what makes them your peers? And I think to your point they become your peers when you want some worst performers than you or you want to, you know, game pay in some way and you don't have active, you don't have visibility into that. I wish there was is that a data set somewhere? I want that should float. Get that free flow analytics. Just go get it. Why are women overrepresented in glass? Cliff roles, is it because of the risk tolerance? Is it crisis Optics? Is it limited pipeline? Or is it convenient? Scapegoating? What is the reason scapegoating? Are you? I, you know, I The real answer is, it's the crisis Optics to your point earlier. It is about hiring a mommy, right? That they think that people think that by putting a woman in the role, that that things will be cleaned up. They make her apologize, usually for stuff. She didn't do you're you're you're young, you don't and you're not agreeing here. No, because you have the Qantas new CEO comes in and all right comes in like shows in that price is Optics, but the reality is she immediately came out. The first thing she said, is I apologize for everything. This company is ever done, and she spent Nothing but time apologizing which is scapegoating, she just got her. What's the point of skateboarding? If it's not to like, fool the public into that? We've we're cleaning this up like why we just go to random person. The boys go back to their yacht with the bags of money that they took out of the company and the woman guy apologizes and as if it was her fault in my heart, I believe what you're saying but I gotta go with crisis Optics there. Finally that this is a finally show, 25 or 25 all the, all these questions based on the scripts of our shows for 2025 what is the most accurate definition. Of independent directors in 2025, okay? What's our definition? Well, yeah, this is really definition of independent director in 2025, is it? No Financial ties. No employment ties. No visible conflict. Or no intention of rocking the boat. I mean, the answer on a board is no intention of rocking the boat. Yes. That's the correct answer. Yeah, so no. Because I think that, that's where we've come to in 2025, is that? That that is really what they're looking for with Independents, like that's why the Kimbell musk's of the World. The Robin Den Holmes are still independent because they're not gonna irritate, they're not okay, that's true, that's true. Because although I thought you meant that you made the claim that if, if you don't live with the family member that could still yeah, independent, they list him as not independent on their proxy. So it's but the point here is, yeah, if you are a family member that lives with them. Yeah. But the bigger Point here is that they there I a boards, a modern boards, I definition of independence now is that someone who doesn't irritate to CEO, who just goes along with the CEO, right? Yeah. It's why investors desperately desperately need like free flow analytics data does a good job of showing you who's not independent for any number of reasons? Like, they all came from the same college or they all have the same knowledge base, or they all are connected through other boards. Together, there's like soft Independence. But the company when it comes to reporting, what is independent and what isn't boards himself? Really just don't want anybody to piss anyone off. They need to maintain status quo. That's correct. All right. Your score is a, I had a trouble scoring this. I think you got a I'll give you a 18. Oh, that sounds which which lands you as a, you're a proxy advisor apologist, which means that you see you scammed United, you missed the point. Oh if you would go out in 20 through to 25, right? You would have been a governance adult you actually. Listen, which is kind of disturbing if you, if you had gotten 13 to 17 correct. You would have been a boardroom Vibes guy. You believe Independence is a feeling. Well, yeah, and if you got eight to 12, right, you would have been a CEO Whisperer, you think, pay packages are earned and Boards try their best. And finally, if you've gotten below eight, you would have been just Kimball musk. I guess what? Yeah. I might just sonnenfeld that it to 12. Is that okay to close out the show? I asked, please round for you. I have a speed round thing that I did, which is I have 10 make believe had the lines and I want you to pick which of these headlines are most likely to occur in 2020. I got, I got a Remember, all 10. Uh, we'll go one at a time and you can give them a zero to ten score. And then the 10 is the one that's most likely. Okay. Which which of these headlines are most likely to current 2026 20? Yeah, this is these are not real headlines. These are my best to play this. Seriously, this is serious. You want you? I mean, the things in here and don't pay attention to the company necessarily in particular, in some of these cases. So I'll show you what I mean. Okay, first up Elon Musk announces rocks, 69, the latest iteration of rock, AI dedicated entirely to porn 69 weed pro wrestling, Call of Duty, and Matchbox cars. Look, I mean, do I want? Do I am I playing this game seriously, or the jokey version of this game? I mean, there's a like somewhere in between like that. The reality is a likely to do something like this. Let's just say that I actually believe this is gonna eventually happen. I don't think it's gonna be next year. Okay, so, but so, but what's the scores zero? Then two a two. Okay low, but but he is a wild card. He, he is capable of maybe because he just he usually does these things when he's angry. Do you notice that when he's most angry or he's being? Most attacked is when he gets the most juvenile like oh yeah I don't see somebody. I thinks it represents some sort of like Freedom by acting. Oh excellent. Like boy like represents his power and free isn't that like modern masculinity, where like you just like you're the one with the exactly the dirty hair. Like it's just like boy stuff, idiot. Boy stuff. All right. How about this one doordash? Announces a 12 year? 8.4 billion dollar PayPal package for CEO. Why are you picking Tony door Dash? Is there a result? So, Jordans just have to be the company. In this case I picked doordash because it's a dual-class company and it's a I I have the sense that there's gonna be these Yes up here, rivian multi-billion, tranche things right after Elon. Musk's after their dippy shareholders, anointed him emperor of the freaking universe. And yeah, no one can say no to. This is a only because I'm I'm like hesitant to give anything a 10. This is a nine. Definitely a nine. I think it's likely to. How about this one doordash announces cutting staff 80% due to AI? Well, is this? Because our they're gonna have like Robo taxis, like automatic cars, like, like robots, delivering what, right is that door Dash is staff is not the drivers. So no, right? That's a good. Like the appy people and like customer service people and like someone when they just off this is Nate because this is gonna keep happening. Costco caves to Trump Cuts Dei. Wow, I I again, I'm like uncomfortable to zeros and tens, I cannot see that happening. It's gonna be a one, why why? I just want to throw it out there? I mean, possible, they look, I was talking to some some friends this morning. I was hard to believe, I have any friends, but yeah. And I don't want to get too political here but but we're now looking at the point with the Trump Empire, the Trump regime where now if that's your hero right? If you're like a mega boy and that's your hero. He's like he is now like considered Uh, like a Epstein pedophile. Like, I mean, that's who your hero is now. I I so what why would I write like, isn't that kind of the accepted status of trump now is that he's in the files? They're redacting it for a reason. The doj is hiding like beyond that though. But I'm just saying, like, like, I think Costco's kind of at a point in history, where Why do they need to Cave to Trump now, like he isn't, he said, a lost a little bit. Like, the reason why they cave is the reason why everyone caves is because Trump immediately. He goes after you, he pulls funding. He had, why haven't they gone after Costco. It's a great, it's like great Point. You're making tomorrow. He could be like, you know what, we're gonna put a tariff on just items, coming into Costco, like he's had a angry pedophile Grandpa. That's what he goes. After the drug companies, got mad at Walmart, like, why, why do we in remember, Intel. He like, bullied his way into taking some of their Equity. Like why, why do you think he hasn't gone after Costco? We haven't actually just before unclear. I hear the single most like anti anti woke company in existence. They they they they like put a flag and Dei in January. There's and then they announced that they're suing the Trump Administration last month. Like what the hell? How How are they not fought back against this company? It's crazy. That's why I'm asking. Why? Why? I think it might be coming. There we go. All right. Next ISS and glass Lewis announced a new zero page voting policy. What does that mean zero page? They just empty. It's a blank page. Well why have a voting policy if your ISS and glassless? Why why exist? I don't really know. I, I like this but I don't really know how to answer. I'll give it a five a five. I like Brian Cornell resigns from Target board. Let me ask you. This is a 0 page books, a little book is that like what are we, what is that, or is it, could it be a donut like what is this something if it's zero Pages, what is it? Is it still? I'm gonna say it's anything in it? Yeah, so it has. Oh okay. So you're saying it's bound. It has a cover. Yes there's nothing in it. Yeah so what is it? It's Brian Cornell resigns from Target board. Oh interesting. How can they let this guy stay? I like this thing. Isn't he? Kind of the embodiment of failure of this comes this company. All the headlines are bad for this company. Is this the year where there's so much like investors basically, they don't vote them out, but he gets like, 52% of the vote or something. He stays, maybe. This is why they kept him. Maybe this is why he's dated executive chair. Although it's really because he calls all the shots, but maybe it's because it's one more scapegoat for the 2026 like because you know, they're gonna continue failing and so maybe they buy firing him, they can appease something. I don't know what though, like, does that they've lost their points? They've waited so long to do anything that they've lost their loyal. Customer base. So I don't even know what they're trying to. They're like, the, they're like the Cracker Barrel of the retail. So I, I like this one. I'm gonna give this. I think, actually think he, I think he might, I think it's a seven. Oh, that's pretty high. I think it is an interesting like, It's a crisis optic moment, right? Yeah. Well speaking of Crisis optic moment and this isn't do you have to pay attention to the company. In this one I just picked a company but CEO of McDonald's refuses to resign after admitting to affair with other Executives. You know this brought this upcoming because it's kind of like the case with we talk about it all the time how was it that attendance became? The only thing that people cared about like if you're a board member and you didn't attend, this mythical arbitrary number 75% of boarding, whatever the hell. That means what what the hell does 75%? Even mean it means nothing absolutely nothing. How was it? That that's the one thing that people who pay attention to proxy voting that's still that's like the it's a line too far, right? Yeah. The same thing goes with CEOs. They are held accountable for nothing and they still get paid. They get overpaid, they get raises, they get bonuses, they get new jobs, they get other board roles. They can be in prison, they still come out and they get like, it doesn't matter, right? So why is it that the one thing that we can still, we've still been firing CEOs for is like, you know, these consensual, we think they're consensual relationships with other employees. So I actually agree with you. I think there is going to be a CEO's, finally, like, no, I'm like, go I'm not clear yourself. I'm a man. Yeah, don't tell me what to do. In fact, give me a bigger bonus because I'm mad at you. Like I'm for pointing it out. I call this a wow, that's really higher than Brian because I'm running from the because I've been waiting to understand this from the corporate world, like, like this is the one area of accountability with your CEO, is that? So why to parallel your your argument and, and just so, so we're clear, if you're listening to this, that statistically Damian is correct. We ran a vote director vote prediction model and we used over 100 factors. Company factors performance factors. All like, oh, that's a massive amount of data that we used to rent through this model and like, out of the top 20, you know, most predictive combinations of factors attendance is in something like 17 of them, right? Like it, but to your point, right? J-hope gets fired for like of attendance and stays on the board. Wouldn't you expect to see? Oh, to like get fired or get pressured to step down after an affair? But just stay on anyway because like, fuck you, I can yes I want. Absolutely. So with you, here's one Sam Altman says he is terrified. Okay, well, okay. I originally would have said, this is an absolute 10, a grand slam Home Run 10 apps, but it We're actually and 2026 might be the year that that the Open Eyes shifts to becoming a public company that they're hinting and go public. So he's gonna have to up the bullshit. And I actually think that he's gonna stop pretending, like, he cares because I think he's gonna have to sell even more bulshit to the potential like shareholder. So I think actually is going to stop saying it as much. I think it's like really a minute. Yes, because I think he's gonna Enter, he even said this week that he has zero percent interest in being the CEO of a public company which should just 0% Sarah, which suggests that, you know, it's, it's a difficult balance like the only Elon Musk can get away with like lying and all the bullshit to the to the investors, right? He's the only one, the other of them have to play the game. They have you know, they had to say the right thing. So I wonder if Sam Altman's gonna dial down that rhetoric and and and and because say he started more yes and start. Pretending once again, that AI is Gonna Save everybody and it's Gonna Save Us from China. He's going to, that's all he's gonna do. Its I, I think this is actually down to, like a six. But, okay, but I would have said How about this? One shareholders. Overwhelmingly vote out. Directors, early in practice? Interesting, I want to believe this one. Like I, I like, I'm so into this. I I'm gonna give it a nine just because I'm just excited. I want. I so want this to happen. I mean finally shareholders, they've taken away your mechanism to put Cheryl or votes on the, on the, on the agendas at these annual meetings. Right. It's a purely political play. It's pure bulshit. And in fact, I saw that that one of the biggest outcomes of these proposals, one of the biggest reasons. And in the last few years, why these shareholder proposals get excluded is because of Engagement with the company, right? So so what these allow you to do, so even if they don't get on the ballot, they help you engage with the company, they help you create conversation and some kind of meaningful exchange, maybe some kind of concession from the company. They've even taken away that from you. Yeah, you can't do that. So if you're not credibly angry and pissed off, there's only one way to fight back this and that's by voting out directors. This is your man, this is your moment like you should be. So Pissed. You see in the Trump Administration for doing this, it had, it almost has to be illegal, but who's gonna fight it? But this is, this is that they took away your right to put these proposals on is, it's just horrible. And there should be way more anger about this other than us. And so, I'll Jim McCarthy. Yeah, just like us in one maybe now, but it's like this. It's outrageous that people don't care about this and I and I so I'm excited. I I really think this could happen. I really do. Alright, here's your final headline, option. Tim Cook announces, retirement in 2028. Wait. So, not next year, like, people just 26. He announces his retirement in. Oh, interesting. It's kind of like a slow, like a slow Bob Iger role. Yeah, yeah, I think there's something off there. There's something going on with Tim Cook. He's the one guy. That I was most surprised that showed up to all the Donald Trump basket kissing parties. He's the one not just because he's gay. That's not a political thing because it's not like, he's, he's never really come out as liberal conservative in the past, right? Has he right? I don't think he's been open about it. He's from, we know, he's from Alabama, and he's gay. So it's an oxymoron, right? But I just think there's something wrong going on. Maybe he's like got cancer or so. I like I think he's conflicted. I think he's struggling. I think he's going through an existential crisis. So I mean, I look and I don't know that he care. I don't know that he wants to take on the AI fight. Like apple is Infamously dead last and it's horrible AI. It's horrible. Siri is the absolute gutter of AI, right? Like Siri knows nothing about anything. I don't think Tim Cook has the appetite for any of this. I don't think. Tim Cook has the appetite to kiss Trump's ass even though he's been forced to do it. So, I think he just wants to leave. I I actually really think he's gonna go. I think he's I think he's going through some kind of personal crisis, really I. So I actually think he's out of ideas. I mean like that could be too. Has he ever had an idea that because we thought that's the thing we made the case a few years ago, that what he's been really great as keeping the big cruise ship that his Apple like in in calm Waters he keeps, he keeps the ship afloat, right? He was literally the operational successor. Yes to Steve Jobs CEO job. What his his own, his role. His the only thing he was supposed to do not be a Visionary, was to make sure Apple didn't sink into the ocean when Steve Jobs died and he's done a great job of it and he's done an amazing job of that. Yeah. Up until the point when he's coming out with, you know, like 3D goggles that nobody wants and like the only has no one AI, no appetite. I the only thing that he's actually innovated are things that have not gone. Well, Everything else. I think he's gone through the earbuds through. Like all of that was on the R&D floor, when Steve Jobs was there still? So we are talking like over a decade of R&D, from a guy who's long dead, still keeping the company afloat that they get paid for their fucking like app store and iPhones. The invented that 15 years ago, Steve Jobs did right? Like we're talking about like and Tim Cook. I think is that a point where it's like? This is a tough one. This got a change here. This is a tough one, because here's my hate sucking Trump's dick. Yeah, I do. Yeah, this now, this is a tough one in, here's my prediction because I think apple is there about to buy a Legacy Media company or an AI company because they can't do Ai. And I and I and I think they just want to gobble up more, you know, intellectual property. And I think if that's the case, if it happens in 2026, I I think you're right. I think he stays to kind of write the ship and keep things calm, but otherwise, I think he's ready to bail because I don't think he has an appetite for AI and I think he just wants to. I mean, maybe they buy AI company in someone else takes over. Maybe that's the moment where he leaves, or I should say becomes executive chair. But I actually think that I'm going to give this a. I'm gonna go on a limb and call it a one. That'll be my pretty. Oh wow! Wow a one. Okay that means he's gonna end this show at long last, there are two it's a good final. 2020. This is our last show 2025. Alright this is our last show you 25 one next week. No we're done. So while I ended the show as a what was I? What was my Matrix? Yeah I was like proxy proxy advisor apologists. You noted you missed the point, you Know, by saying the most. Weekly headlines to occur in 2026 are shareholders, overwhelmingly vote out directors early in the proxy season and wow, doordash and or some company announces a multi-year. Many billion dollar pay package using the horrible word, trunch, my least favorite word, Tron, trust. And by the way, what I think was least likely to occur, Tim Cook, I think Tim Cook will step down and I Costco's not caving to Trump. Costco doesn't cave and Tim Cook does step down earlier than 2028, that's all we got. That's all we got. Come on. That's that was a lot that he will be back in 2026 for us. It's like another year changes, it doesn't really matter. The data keeps coming. The day is the same, the headlines stays the same. So we'll be back with more of this. We've got some amazing updates to the platform. Yeah, in 2026. You got some amazing things happening on the free flow, analytics, our sponsors side. But have A happy safe holiday. If you celebrate a holiday. Now if not enjoy, the fact that every other moron is on a holiday, we'll see you next year until then goodbye.