Transcript
Welcome to shareholder Primacy from free float media podcast, about activist investing Securities Law, and all the ways, the financial and legal worlds, intersect and Collide and real life. It's our the second week of 2026. So we're trying to get back on schedule in an and me and Lipton, of course, is here law professor at the University of Colorado, teachers, and research and securities, and business law, and she holds up the legal end of the podcast, and that's Michael Levin and activist investor who lives and works in Chicago. He covers the financial side of our podcast, right? We'll go ahead Legal Financial legal, so we were thinking about the new year. With, you know, resolution and what you're trying to do when I accomplished, I don't know about you, but periodically. People ask me, do the ask you, what do you read? What do you sort of used to kind of? Keep up. Yeah, the specifically I get, which just recently there were law. Professors talking about what we, what we read to keep up with the latest in business news. You know, I don't read the newspaper, but how do you write the Wall Street Journal is pretty standard. But yeah, that's what I tell us, a good question. Like particularly because activist investing is somewhat of an obscure Corner of of the investing world people ask. Are there any books? That I could read. Is there a single book? I can read that will make me smart about activist investing. And the short answer to that of course is know until I write The Art of War. I'm so now it's a little too obscure or indirect. So until you and I or me or someone writes that book and we should, we should do that. Why don't we do that? That'll be our next project. Well, write a book and activist investing until we write the definitive treatise. On how activists investing works. There is no single book but there are books. That I recommend to people. And there's probably some that you Direct people to I mean I'm not thinking like that that's investing, right? But I think. Yeah. Okay fine but then and there's probably case books and so forth that you know there's a whole you know, long library of stuff that law students look at. But this is this is more for like mid-career column. You know, people who are saying, okay, this is kind of cute, I'm kind of curious, what should I read? So we thought and I at one point, I wrote a post about this. No, I thought we would kind of kind of look at that for a little while and sort of see what those look like and see, see what we can say about them. And then we can also talk about some of the other stuff that we, we kind of used to keep current about what's going on in our world. I thought that might be a nice. Nice way to kind of kick off the air. What do you think sound good, sure sounds right. So I have a list and if it's actually, if you, if people really want to explore this, there's a photo of it on my LinkedIn page. Of the of my little corporate governance activism investing bookshelf. And there's several books there that I commend to people. And I was going to go through a few of them here and sort of see what you think and see what you add to them. The first one is Berlin means modern Corporation and private property. Go ahead. I actually I always pronounced it in my head Berle and means until one day at a conference. Everyone was saying it's Burly. I think it's Burly actually Burly in means, oh, interesting. And I did not know that I'd only read it and I, you know, at a conference there were law professors talking because it's a foundational and I think it's actually early. So right is the thing I learned. So it's it's, it's pretty, it's pretty intense. It's not like an overnight read, you gotta really study it. It's old it's from the 30s. Yes. Right. Absolutely foundational. And in the field and do you do you still study? It used to you don't assign it. We still, we don't, I don't assign it but we still talk about it. I mean, we still, you know, it's still very much part of the conversation people refer to the Burley means Corporation. Oh, and what? And when they talk about that, what are they referring to? They're referring to the corporation. Like, what we think of as a public corporation, which is to say, centralized management with liquid shares just separate owner control separately, the separation of ownership and control. That's what people talk about, right? Because at the time they wrote, they were think they were thinking more about kind of little private businesses, where the founder was the main owner. Well, they, well, they were talking about the transformation to the right. The right. Exactly. Yeah. The transformation and they were doing the contrast. Exactly. And it really anticipated, a lot of what we know today of how companies corporations are structured and anticipated, some of the controversies and some of the Problems that the next book I want to talk about included which is agency cost which is when the owners and the controllers have different interests. So okay, so early in means minor Corporation. Private property is is a biggie. The next one that I like that I recommend is actually a collection of papers It's called foundations of organizational strategy. The author is Michael Jensen of Jensen and meckling fame. Yeah, and he wrote, of course, the seminal paper on agency cost which we've talked about on the podcast which we've studied a lot. So this is actually a collection of his papers, which is includes agency costs with Makiling and then all so include some others one that focuses on Why the profit objective is the best one for companies and that's the controversial. But people puts a lot of logic into saying that if you allow managers to Do all sorts of other stuff besides make a profit then they can do all sorts of weird things with the company, right? Yeah, no, I mean exactly. I mean, that idea that the agency costs idea that Matt you if managers have to be, you know, focused on profit as a way of disciplining them and the concept and coupled with modern Corporation and private property that the problem of, well, how do you force management to focus on children interests? Those are, you know, I mean, that those are still very much what we talked about in classrooms today, and we'll talk about in academic conferences. So you, so you've seen, so you've seen some of Jensen. I mean, Jensen was a finance Professor, thank you. Yeah. Gentle Johnson's idea of agency costs and yeah and the separation of ownership and control of very much sort of right still exactly. I like to tell people that like you know the problems that they came up with 100. They saw in the development of the modern Corporation 100 years ago is very much like Still the problems that haven't been solved. They've gotten worse. All right, I've got worse but there were still working on them. All right. So another book after foundations would be one that you wouldn't expect here. It's called exit voice and loyalty by Albert hirschman. I don't know how familiar with with that one. I haven't read it but I have heard the title, oh, go read it, put in your spare time, it essentially and it has nothing to do with Finance has nothing to do with activism. But as everything to do with how Interested parties in organizations act and decide. In particular whether to like exit whether to just leave the organization or whether to as Hershman says, express voice. Yeah. Try to change an organization. And again he was, he's a political theorist and it's an easy read. It's like a little more than 100 pages, but it really foreshadowed. A lot of the nature of of activism in many ways, political activism social activism. But in our case investment activism. Yeah. And he has like kids like one page, one paragraph about Investors. It's really kind of funny. Well, go ahead. Yeah. It's just funny because, you know, Thompson's presser George Town. He, I think he's the one who came up with the way, the phrase that child is actually have, you know, three three rights, which is vote, sell and Sue. So there's an oily doesn't fit, but the exit voice is very much like shareholders have three things that they can do. They can sell their shares. Exit exactly. They can vote for or they can sue really voice. Exactly. So hershman's formulation, which I read, I think is an undergraduate. I was assigned this book and this is a very long time ago. I still have my own copy, my old copy and it's great. I appear I pick it up here at the. All right, so there's there's three kind of long ago, you know, decades old texts that help inform kind of what activism looks like and how to think about it, there's some more current or more recent ones that are worth highlighting. And I'm going to go through these a little quicker if you're interested in a really good overview of just corporate governance. There is a book called corporate governance. And it's a very thorough extensive Treatise by monks and minnow and of course, minnow, is now on the show, right? We interviewed her. She's an old friend. Yeah, and her Mentor was guy by the name of bad monks. Who Bob monks who died last year, who was one of the original kind of activists in the 70s, he ran for the board of directors at Sears. A member series The retailer. I remember shears? Yes, right. There's they got four stores left. There was an article about them the other day, and I think that, and multiple lawsuits that I remember things by lawsuits. So, anyway, so they're both attorneys. I think monks is an attorney now. Definitely some dirty, and they wrote a very extensive Treatment of corporate governance. That is a really good reference tool and I think they've updated. It's probably either third or fourth edition at this point. So, corporate government. If people want a single book on corporate governance that sort of goes over a lot of the general and specific principles with reference to law and so forth. That's it's a winner, okay. There are two or three kind of more case oriented books that I love to recommend to people. One of them is a little older and it's called Disney War. By James Stewart, I think, oh, it's great. It's it's long, it's details, and it's, it's the account of when the Disney family was fighting off CEO. Michael Eisner, and his succession plans for the company. It reads, kind of like a novel, because that's how James, Stuart writes. Um, but it's and it's probably a 20 or 25 years old at this point because that that proxy contest took place in the 90s but that is one of the single best extensive case studies of a corporate governance, situation activist situation and it's ironic, you know, because the activists there was the Disney family was right. Doesn't he was was Walt's brother or his family. So Disney wore is is another good kind of case study. And then another book of much more recent case, studies is called dear chairman and it's by our friend, Jeff Graham. So Jeff is an investor who runs a company, a little fun called Bandera Partners. He's been involved in some really funky weird activist situations and these activists guy, he was guest on the Pod sometime last year and what he did is took a very scholarly approach and went into archives and went and got All sorts of documentation and letters and SEC filings and so forth from decades and decades ago, and profiled eight or 10 activist situations and dear chairman, of course, refers to the latter. That, you know, some activists dude might write to the chairman of the board saying this is what I want. And, you know, he talks about, you know, old railroad cases and more recent cases, you know, there's some really interesting stuff Jeff teaches this book and a class at Columbia, I think Columbia, where he has he's an adjunct and it's just a fascinating read. You know, he really on Earth some stuff that was, you know, quite unexpected. So in terms of like cases in individually examples. This is this is a really, really good book. And if people haven't looked at it, they really, they really should. It's probably fun to teach from this. It's at some point, if if the opportunity arises. Yeah, I don't know if you'd seen that one, but that's Great. I know I cool. There's one other that just came out a little more recently. and it's called, and it's like in the past year, And it's called onboard. The author is Jonathan Foster, who's like an investment bank or more of an Insider. I'm eager to have him on the pot at some point and talk to him about this. So next time you're traveling we'll see if he's available um but on board is his book that is a much more kind of current treatment of some controversies and so forth in Corporate governance and I suppose activists and investing. So it's it's designed more for advice for directors. And his perspective is as more of a board Insider So he doesn't really adopt as much of the investor perspective as I would have preferred. But otherwise, it's a very thorough. Look at some current stuff going on in Delaware or relatively current stuff. So he's his current is talking about some of the musk pay things and so forth. Okay. Yeah. And it's, it's like I said, it's just came out in the past year and it would be like a good compliment to the corporate governance book from monks and meno a little bit of an update with some more more recent stuff so that would be on board by. I said, Jonathan Foster, there's one other. So you've commented on some of these and I, and, and hopefully, there's, there's none that you disagree with us. Being kind of like, you know, not actually worth it. Well, I haven't read. I admit I haven't read all of them, but you're definitely wedding my appetite. Oh, cool, great. I know because you got all sorts of time for this. The one, the one other book that I recommend, I said we're going to like have case books and so forth. I still refer To my old Corporate Finance book from graduate school. Principals to corporate finance, at least we used to call, Brilliant Myers. I don't know if you've ever picked up these corporate fights but I I am not a finance person. I'm a law person. So I know only I have only I know exactly enough Corporate Finance to be able to basically understand what people are talking about. But also used to be really admires. I still have my old copy which is 40 plus years old now Franklin Allen so it's really Myers Allen but it's it's it's it's the, you know, one of the couple Corporate Finance texts that, you know, graduate students and MBA students and so forth, have to kind of tear apart and I still refer to it sometimes, if I'm looking for some sort of evaluation trick or you wondering about a share price or something like that, it's still it's still valuable. So I still have principles of Corporate Finance on the bookshelf, and I saw her to back to it sometimes. So there's there's a list of books. I don't know if you have something that you kind of contribute here, but this is, this is kind of what I think about when people ask me. What do I read to Get smart about activist investing. Yeah. I, I don't Focus. Specifically on activist investing in a line, I reuse days or whatever law review papers are out. But but one book that I really like a lot, there's a series that people put out their lost stories and what they are, go ahead, what they are, it's a whole series of them. But what they are are each one is devoted to a different legal field and they take some of the foundational cases in the field and they kind of look and they tell you the background Narrative of like, what isn't in the case and the historical context and so forth. So there's one called corporate law stories and it has a lot of the foundational cases Dodge vs 4 minehart versus salmon Ringling Brothers. And then a little slightly more modern ones like blasius and unicow. And and it gives like sort of a narrative of like, what led to it, and sort of contextualize it, you know, where it falls in history. And I just find that really interesting. Oh, interesting. Okay, corporate law stories. Yeah. All right, so That'll be your, that'll be your holiday gift, and that'll be a gift next year and I'll give you some of these. So, all right, cool. There are other things that we do read that we'd like to cover and discuss and kind of trade notes about like journals and blogs or who the hell knows. And so we were going to cover that too. But in a moment all right after a break sounds good. Cool here at shoulder Primacy. Shareholder Primacy is brought to you by free flow analytics.com. The only free database of corporate directors, their influence and their performance Fiona Stocker, retirement, plan go to freeflow analytics.com. And look up, which of your elected directors are performing well and which aren't use your vote in the alternative democracy and get your data at free flow. Analytics.com. Now, back to the show, welcome back to shareholder Primacy. I'm Ann Lipton here with Mike Levin and we're continuing to look at what we read to keep current on lawn and investing and activism and whatever's going on in the business world. All right, so yeah, I think we're gonna focus on like because I keep getting asked like, how do you keep up with the cases? How do you find? Like, how do you find? Kate like, whatever recent cases have been decided and all of that stuff like so other than reading the newspaper which doesn't report on every little thing, right? How do you keep up with this stuff? Right. Well, there's a couple of very basic resources that a lot of people on. A lot of followers here are already know but it's worth mentioning. There's two kind of University based blogs. There's the Harvard Law School, corporate governance. I call it the corporate governance Forum, but it's Lucian, bad chicks department. And it's the Harvard Law School Forum, or whatever on corporate governance, and they have two or three posts each day during the week, and then the its twin is the CLS. Columbia Law School, Blue Sky blog. Yeah. And, and I sense. There's a little bit of a friendly. I don't know. Competition between them to sort of get stuff to get stuff. Yeah. But yeah. So, but both of them, they opposed by practitioners on latest developments. They have professors talking about their latest articles. So there were searched sometimes industry people like glass Lewis or ISS will post a report there and of course frequently if there's been a some kind of statement or speak by a member of the SEC something. Oh sure. Those get close to their too. Right. My sense is that. Sometimes with with some frequency, both are just reproducing memos from law firms. Yeah, I think that's there's some of it, that is some of it. And yeah, so I mean, the thing about Law Firm memos is they can flag really interesting new issues, but they very, you know, the law firm doesn't want to commit to a position because they might eventually have to litigate it. So often they'll describe an interesting new development, but then the rest of the memo tends to be something along the lines of, therefore, you need to hire a lawyer and carefully. Sure you want this Biola. If you want to take advantage, this bylaw thing you need to talk to us in person. Yeah, exactly. Like they don't, they don't like take a position like this, was it. They tend not to take positions too far because they don't know what they're going to write litigating, but they can describe interesting new development. I I've sensed that both though Harvard and Columbia have started to focus a little more on like original contributions and not just reproducing, Stuff that's been and I probably spoke places and I think you have to. Yeah. So speaking of Law, Firm memos is there. I can think of one Law Firm. Who's who's memos? Yeah. Always. They're very good. They're, they're very well written and they're and that would be cool. Yeah, and that's a little bit less. Dry legal tones, there's more personality right coolie right? Yeah, and they and they, fortunately for them, their editor is this guy friend of ours Brock romanick who used to be part of another group that we're going to talk about. But he basically, I think keeps their memos going in the right direction and at the right level of abstraction and kind of entertaining enough. So if there's a single off forum And you're interested in, you know, this corporate governance stuff. They whose memos you want to read it? I think it would be coolies at this at this point. You know there's look there's anyone of 50 Lofts whose Memo's you could follow. And, you know, some people do all that I find that got to be a lot to try to read and it gets pretty redundant after a while. So so those are, those are law oriented ones. There's a finance guy who everybody's got to follow, which he got to be, Matt Levine. Well, everybody follows Matt Levine. Yes, right. And you can I happen to buy Bloomberg? I pay money to Bloomberg so I can get his stuff, but my institution pays money to Bloomberg. Oh, so do you? Wow. Okay, so you can get one. What? Well, one of the I have a budget for books that I use for subscriptions. That don't come to the school and one of my subscriptions is to Bloomberg. Oh I see. Okay, oh interesting. So so they don't give you a terminal. I have a budget that allows me to subscribe to Bloomberg. So I I also subscribe to Bluebird again. I don't have a terminal because I don't know that way, but Matt Levine stuff is free. So anybody follow here, you want to follow me, just add an email address and I'll send it to you. So yeah. So Matt Levine is required reading. There are some a couple of others that are worth. Well, there's a what, there's some newsletters along those lines that you I know you like to read. What are some of the ones that you've used? Well, I mean, I can I well I another legal ish blog. That is Kevin Lacroix d&o. Diary he does so interesting. He mostly he's getting insurance guy, but he talks about things related to directors and office. There's liability, which I find useful. And then there are the blocks that you, you know, like the deal lawyers.com, the corporate counsel.net. Oh sure. Asian standards, right? And they're all part of the same group here. That's the group that Brockman came from and that's very useful stuff. Very useful update on, you know, cases and and development. Sometimes they report on Law Firm memos but that's used. But useful like Ones that I hadn't seen that you know, right over the latest development is fill this because if it hasn't reached the point of an actual dispute in case law, sometimes it doesn't come to my attention easily. Oh interesting. So if someone hasn't sued somebody you may not. Yeah. Then I rely on these blogs to tell me about developments that are outside the world of actual cases, so those three those started out I think is as compilations of Law Firm members, but quickly, spread to, I mean, they have conferences they have webinars but those three blogs dealers, corporate counsel and compensations. So those are all free. I think you can just sign up and get those blogs sent to you directly with without paying them money. I think, that's right. So, there's another substack that I love. Mr. Corps gov. Do you do you get Mr? Corpgov I have seen Mr. Corbett. Yes. You know, I haven't signed up for you. I know, but I read it occasionally and they like they've had some. I think he had like, you know, and interesting breakdown of Tesla votes and other kinds of you should say you should. It's again, it's free to sign up. He doesn't charge it, you know, the person behind Mr. Clarke was Andrew droste. Yeah, we've interviewed, who joined us in the Pod some months ago, and he had stewardship at Columbia threatening needle And so this is this kind of alter ego where he can talk about interesting. Governance development. So that's why you know, started following at one point last year the Netflix director, that lost the election because of attendance and so forth, he kind of wrote about that. And you know other kind of really interesting, you know, hardcore Corp gov Things so Mr. Corp gov is is quite good. Fortunately and one of the problems with like the Harvard thing or deal lawyers Incorporated, is there so much. You know, there's two or three or four items that day you know, Andrew just spoke. He's very well curated. He'll focus on one or two things a week or every couple weeks and so you know, when he publishes something it's worth reading. So what do you go ahead? Go ahead. I know for substacks I'll just throw out Professor Bainbridge, you know, Steve Bainbridge at UCLA. He's a subject. Now, what you do have to pay for that one and Francie McKenna oh who's been on? We talked her. Yeah, we've talked to her, you know, she did write counting focused. Yeah. So to keep up with cases because people ask me about this a lot, is that law 360 and Bloomberg law, which is actually a separate subscription from Bloomberg law, 36 and Bloomberg law. Both have these sort of email newsletters that go out Out every weekday and their topical. So there's a Securities one for law, 360. There's a Securities one for Bloomberg law. There's an m&a one for Bloomberg law. There's a corporate one for law 360 and what I mean, they've articles but they actually every case that's decided as far as I can tell in the field gets a little blurb and I find that incredibly helpful. So I skim that every morning and I, you know, and that's how I find a lot of the cases. Oh, interesting. All right. Yeah, again, I, I'm not, I'm not trying to follow cases, I mean, when I follow cases in part, I rely on what you tell me. Yeah, for me it's critical. So like, you know, every new Security's decision especially because I want a case for security. So that's how I keep up with the Securities. Cases every single Security's decision is ultimately flagged and Loth. 360 what do you use to keep track of SEC filing so well mostly I don't I only just sort of look when there's one particular thing that interests me but there's a professor at Emory Andrew Jennings who has a free site called. K filings.com. Oh, K is the letter K filings one word.com where you can actually sign up? If you're like I mean I know that like professional investors have ways that they get their SEC finally but he has like a little thing that you could sign up to be alerted for anything. You're falling. Oh, interesting. Because I use, I have a couple resources. I mean you could try to work Edgar but Edgar's really. A hassle. So there's one that I follow I hate that they've redesigned the site a couple years ago and I hate it. I'm not I'm not a fan, um, switching to classic view because yeah, I don't, I don't love it. Nice chronological view, I don't want whatever. Yeah, I use something called SEC info, seven letters, one word, SEC, info.com by this and it's like a single proprietor. A guy in La by the name of Fran Finnegan. And he basically is figured out a way to penetrate Edgar. And it is. Delightful. It is so good. He has this comprehensive kind of Edgar filtering surface. And so any Edgar filing is available through SEC info, you just look it up. There's keyword searching and so forth. Its You can do email alerts, which I love. So I have a couple dozen or more email alerts on specific, tickers on specific symbols. So, anytime Tesla does a filing. I get something from SCC, so I see all the form fours and all the 10 foot 1445. I mean all kind of stuff. And you can also get notification of specific types of SEC filing. So anytime somebody files a 13 D, it shows up in my so I get a lot of those. um, and it's it's it's it's technically free attacking. I'm sorry, you can get it for free. He asked for 120 bucks and it is just great. It's it's just it's easy to use. Its totally searchable. And and it's a one-man show and it's and it's really wonderful. I I'd also. So that's what I used to kind of follow. SEC files, I see. Um, there's one other resource, there's a couple that you can, I mean there's other resources, you can look at that, you know, cost a bunch of money for like following activism stuff. Okay? So there's there's diligent S&P, you know, bunch of these. I happen to Happen to like a startup called boardroom Alpha. One word boardroom Alpha that come and they, they're pretty generous with their trial subscriptions and they have it's a basic tracker. So you can look at a company. And look, all the activists were situations that have been there. You can look at up an active, you can look up a type of filing again. Eventually you're going to pay some money there. But for now boardroom Alpha is, like I said, because they're in trying to grow, I think they're pretty generous with their trial subscriptions. So I I get a couple reports from them once a day. a boardroom Alpha and it's if I need to go look up, you know some company and figure out, you know there have been some some other Activists things that might not have gotten to the SEC filing stage, like a news release or something like that. Boardroom Alpha would have. That may also have complete financial information available on companies so it's one of these comprehensive resources. That's a little less less well known compared to a couple of the biggies but I still I still really like using it. Another resource. I like to follow. Is the business law professor blog. Oh, wow. I know that one. So so that's where you publish your blog. That's where you block that. That's where I blog. Yeah. Roughly once a week and sometimes more than once a week, if I get very, very inspired. But there are other professors who contribute, that's what I was kind of curious about. What's that? What's the story behind the business law professor block? Well, I Threw different management. Switch sights. I mean, it was started many, before I became a professor, it goes back, you know, to at least 2010, I think, at least part of a law, professor blog Network that was on tight Pad, but then type pad kind of died and so, different blogs of sort of scattered to the winds. But basically, it was always just a collection of business law professor. But people drop out and they go back in. So, like the actual membership of the bloggers have changed over time but two of the people who Blog the most there. In addition to myself, are Joan, Hemingway at Tennessee and Ben Edwards at Nevada. And Ben Edwards has been periodically sort of charting companies moving in and out of Delaware, which is really useful, right? But yeah, you can sign up for emails every time there's a blog post if you like I and I personally blog there once a week more often if The if I am inspired right. All right. Okay, yeah. So business law. Professor blog is something that it's like one word business law professors.com. Now, after we move from Thai pad, because type pad blew up, right, right. I like that too. So just, you know, this is London's obviously we all know about Wall Street Journal. Our time, the two other relatively new blogging things that I like are ft Alphaville has a substack now. And they and they put, and they get an email alert once a week and some of 4 I think has got great business coverage. Yeah, they have some real. I mean it's like, you know, they get commentary that you don't necessarily see in in other sources, which I find interesting. So they, they often have really interesting little tidbits. I get a daily Email from semaphore, just general news, like yeah, I've signed up for their media and for their business, right? And they I don't know if you saw, they just raised. They just did around bucks. I saw and so they're expanding and they they had been doing a once a week business column. And now they're evidently expanding it to five days a week. Oh, great. Because I mean, I really I mean, you know, like I I just they they managed to get sources who say things that I just don't see elsewhere that I'm glad you mentioned that semaphore is is really a smart, a smart thing to So yeah. So that's kind of a little overview of Of what to read and what to look at. I think this year. So I think that I've learned a couple things here about what you like to look at. Yeah, and hopefully, hopefully some of the stuff I follow is going to be helpful to you. So like I said, I know I'm gonna get you for a couple gifts at some point. Okay. All right. Sounds good. All right. Cool, good. I think we can wrap up. So there's a pro tip for everybody. The followers here. So when When podcasters like us don't have anything really, really current. This is what we do. What we're saying, there's stuff going on. There's the Warner Paramount Netflix thing which I find fascinating, but we record a couple days before these things go. Anything I say now is gonna turn out to be stale, stale old. Yeah, very religious. Although, the only comment I have is a Paramount, apparently, just, like, put out a claim that werner's cable assets are worthless and therefore, there's no need like, there's no value added by Netflix allowing Warner shareholders to keep it. Right. Keep them to wish my responses. Okay, well, I'll take them. I mean, if they're right, if they're free. Yeah. So when there's not a whole lot of news or nothing, really top of mind, we talk about things we read. Yeah, that's that's helpful to everybody. So let's move on from this and think about more stuff to find better stuff next week. Anyway, this is shareholder Prime, is he hosted by in Lipton and me? Mike Levin. I'm an independent. Activist investor and advisor to investors about their activist situations and is Professor of law and the Lawrence wuth chair of Business Law at the University of Colorado law school. You can find me Mike at the activist investor.com and an at law dot colorado.edu. Our podcast is produced and distributed by free float media. Thanks for listening. We'll talk again soon.