Lauren Thomas, Wall Street Journal

Welcome to shareholder Primacy from free float media. A podcast about activist investing Securities Law, and all the ways, the financial and legal worlds, intersect and Collide in real life. Normally, I'm here with an Lipton law professor Tulane. But Anne once again is traveling to another conference and other academic Gathering. So an and I invited Lauren Thomas. She is the lead deals. Reporter for the Wall Street Journal to join us for a chat about activist investing in deals and all sorts of fun stuff Lauren. And I have known each other for a little while here, where I love reading the stuff. She comes up with in the journal and I hope she enjoys getting insights from activist investing when she interviews me. So we're going to talk about activist investing corporate governance and also maybe if we have some time, what it's like being a journalist covering activists in the business World Lauren say hi. Yes. Hello. Hello. Thank you for the warm. Welcome and thanks for being. So you got off to a busy start and I think we've been trying to schedule this for a while and we couldn't because you were in Davos I was yeah, yeah, no, it was my, it was my first time going. Um, just got back a few days ago, so I'm still recovering from the jet lag. Okay. Good. Yeah, I'm getting there but no, it was an amazing experience. I mean, this year in particular, I think the timing was really unique. It overlapped with the inauguration and DC. So just as Davos was kicking off, Trump was getting sworn into office. So it was fascinating to kind of be on the ground there and to have these world leaders, you know, from all over and get perspective in real time was really interesting. All right, there's probably some good schools and some good. Good insights. I mean, you didn't just party your party. Your no, no, no, okay, no, I I tried to, you know, I was proud of myself. I mean, you you're the day start really early and go really late and hopefully not too late. But knowing that I had to wake up most mornings on the early side, tried to try to call it a night at a reasonable hour but it was great for For a reporter. It was great for sourcing. Definitely wonderful. Well so so that was a busy part of the one part of the busyness of the year, but there's also been A bunch of stuff that's kind of got going. What have you started to cover? What have you started to see? What are some of the things you've been reporting on lately? Just to kind of let's set let's set the set the stage. Yeah no fantastic. It has been. I mean and so it's the end of you know January it's the start of the year and this is typically when we kind of see the activity levels pick back up, right? As the nomination windows, open up. So I think that that was kind of my expectation heading into the new year but it's interesting. I did a piece which we actually spoke about that published at the end of 2020 for kind of got it. This idea that, you know, when you look at some of the the data or looked at the data from last year, There weren't as many, you know, fights, I guess that that went all the way to a shareholder vote. And so that was kind of a continuation of a trend not necessarily anything. Anything new, but just you were seeing more settlements and also settlements struck much more quickly between companies and activists. Exactly, yes. So kind of expecting, I feel like we've already seen a bit of that and, and the one other thing, and what the story kind of got out was just the newer crop of activists, like one thing that I can continue to hear from the advisor Community is that they're seeing these newer firms firms show up that, they've never heard of before that are pushing for things often behind the scenes that had companies. So kind of this this uptick in activity driven by newer players. So the lawyers in the proxy solicitors and the always advisors are saying there's all these kind of, I don't know if they're younger older, but newer kind of fund managers, right? That have. And yeah, we did talk about that and that's a really interesting Trend. You know, how they think about activism investing and so forth is probably a little different Yeah, totally. Well I just we you know, we've covered this situation closely. And there was some news very recently around this medical dental, supply company Henry, Henry Schein and I've been following them for years. Yeah well so you had you had a newer player Charlie Pinter who was you know kind of famously was that Jenna and then he was at engine number one. And then we started this new firm and him with his co-founder, Alex silver, they were in Henry, Schein, and preparing to possibly nominate for board seats. And you just had the news news break or we broke in the journal and that we, you know, the Wall Street Journal. I broke that KKR had also been there, building a stake, super interesting situation. And now KKR has board seats at Henry Sean, but it sounds like Eminem. And we got a quote from Charlie, but it sounds like they're they're pleased with the outcome. But, but how you seeing the new new cast of characters? Yeah, it's, it's hard not to Be kind of pleased. If you're an animal, I'll put it this way. You have no choice but to be pleased if they are shows up. No kidding, exactly. Probably kind of Let's say in the investment. But yeah, right. So okay, so that's that. So that's an interesting that didn't exactly settle with the activist, but it kind of settled in a way Rare and an improbably won't nominate more, right? But they will probably I mean I didn't look at the share price this morning I guess it's pretty well yeah. And so that would be you know another example of one where you were trying to you know keep everybody abreast and then this kind of settlement sort of just kind of came out of nowhere. So right. Wow. Go ahead. No. It's just gonna say it's, I mean, I think it's just, it's just getting the years, kind of getting started, the quote unquote, proxy season is kicking off. But there's a lot of chatter I think behind the scenes, so it'll be interesting to see. Yeah, what, what sees the light of day now, did you what one that did get to a? As I like to say a voting outcome was, are products with mantel? I don't know how much coverage. I don't know if you were working on that or others were or what your, what Your Role, or what your how much you would report on that? Yeah, no I definitely I think we Um, I broke the news. When was it at some point last year when they first showed up? And then, of course you had de Shaw also, right there for, for a period of time. So that's kind of, I don't know, maybe you think of it as it was a swarm, a situation in, which they were swarming, this one company, but I didn't break as much news on it throughout, but was following it very closely. But I think my biggest Takeaway on that one and something that advisors have been talking about since the vote in recent days is just this whole idea of anti the ante and I ESG and how that was that play in the Air Products situation. Oh, like that, I had only seen a little bit about. How was that what we were hearing about? Why do I or ESG or whatever was a factor there? Criticizing. Over the years. Kind of get away from the core like industrial gas, their strategy around that and it had been making Investments and like, cleaner energy, you know, green green Investments and so that was one criticism that the firm had highlighted. And so, yeah, I just thought that seems to have stuck with some people and like, there's this question of what we see. Well, we see more of that now, especially with Trump in office. Oh yes, no, I there's a raging debate among the people. I've been in touch with that, you know, how is it going to affect? Not just company approaches to Dear, but how investors and shareholders, think about that stuff? And we can, we can, we'll talk about that in a little bit. So though, I think I'll talk about the later is, I guess you're not full-time. I mean on activism, but you have been starting like around 2022, right? Is that when you join the journal? Yes, I joined in 2022. Exactly. I came over from CNBC, um, And my job has also. I know the title is, you know, deals reporter but within that it's kind of m&a and activism, yeah, lumped in together. And so, I would say, me personally on any given week, like all kind of ebb and flow. I'm like, more in the MMA world or more on the activism world just depending upon just depending where what news is there and what you're, what your editors are feeling and seeing and so forth. What's going on? But there's there's so much overlap between the two as you know. Um, oh yeah. Oh, often pushing for MMA pushing for a deal. So what are, what are some of the most memorable? I mean, you know, three years is is probably what are some of the biggest things you've worked on since, since you started? What was that? What were your favorites that you you'd kind of look at? Yeah, I would say, well, right? When I showed up at the journal which was like the fall of 2022 that was right, you know, little design, I know at the time but that was right as Nelson. Pelts and Cheyenne. We're building a stake in Disney for the first time and then we would go on. I would go on to break that news. I guess in late 2022 that they were there and then you had Bob chapek lose his job and Bob in either came back in and you saw all this stuff. I mean I kind of started paying attention only after it became public, but used to you you were kind of had your finger on that pulse so to speak the scenes. Yeah, we need it seems like something something was at play so then, of course that Saga lasted, what like two years that took a while. Oh, right. Because, because, pelts originally know some, pelts originally just nominated himself, Right. Right. We had round one and then he came back later round too. Um you know, when they were arguing to stop, you know, hadn't done enough for them and so that was just super memorable and that was like a perfect. I mean, the Wall Street Journal was obsessed with that story generally so we had not just myself but our media reporter over in Los Angeles was like covering it with very closely. So it it kind of turned into this team effort Across The Newsroom to cover the whole Disney situation because it's Disney. So like all the you know our readers are you know fixated on these big American company and you you were able to follow that kind of Story for many, many months, there was a lot, kind of developing, and we kind of ab and flow, and but it was something you'd like, sort of do reporting for a month or two and then it would be done. No, exactly. Not like some of these right where there's like, we are in and finish. I mean, even now, I think it's still fair to kind of keep it on. It's always on the radar, you know, maybe not top of mine but like always kind of keeping in mind. This idea of. Do they show up again or to someone else show up? Again, I mean, I think I found, I think Triads out. I think they sold everything last. I mean, they made. Yeah, they made a nice. Um, they made a nice. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, that I mean because we can talk about whether that was, you know, who won. Who lost everyone loves kind of Kind of trying to add a winner in the loser. Exactly. But sometimes it's hard to write, it's hard to say. I mean, it Disney, everybody's a winner because Bob Iger kept his job, and it's still his powerful as ever. I think it just saw, I just got a huge race last year and then even though he's supposed to overtired and Nelson's, made a lot of money and the only maybe the loser was, I promise her, who didn't get what he wanted out of this. So yeah, yeah, you had that you had that at play too. It's a very unique situation. But that was, that was definitely at least one of the ones that was that was, yes, memorable. All right, any others you want to talk about, because I'm gonna ask you about in a bit. Yeah, one other. I mean, I personally enjoyed covering the situation at Starbucks. I don't know if you remember that. Yes. Oh, you were so. You were reported. You were reporting on Starbucks too? Yes, Starbucks thing with the ssci you. I can't remember the union. It was both both. I broke the news that that social SOC. I believe it was yes, it that this was like kind of a social activist group. So we we first broke that news. I mean, that must have been two years ago, which was kind of the unique, like, with universal proxy and play. That was like putting it to the test a little bit. You know, everyone was just hating that with universal proxy. We'd see like new flavors of activism that was interesting, but no, but then fast forward to, I guess, this past year, when you had there was all this noise, all the sudden and Starbucks that like activist real activists were there and I broke the news. Don't don't tell us. Don't tell us the bread of bread and butter. I know Financial activism Financial accident. Um, we're we're in Starbucks. So I broke news that Elliot had a stake and then right, I couldn't remember the Activist was right, okay. And they're still there. I think they, I mean, it's been, it's kind of gone a little quiet, I think. But right. But then and then you had a number of other show up. I think, um, starboard was there with a small steak, try and come to find out had a stake but sold out of it. So as a company, where they were all swarming, but on a personal level, I was just gonna throw in. I was Starbucks. That was like, my first job, like your first first job, really. Just like, I was a, I was a barista back in the day and so, oh, it's always kind of fun to follow that company. Having having worked there in my generation. You used to work at McDonald's. Right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. But it's now everyone, you know, I used to work at Starbucks. My neat, my not, her first in college. And she used to my job, was at Starbucks in high school. It's great. It was yeah, no, it was, it was a fun gig. But and then, of course, yeah, the CEO, Even after the news broke of all these activists very quickly, the CEO was replaced. So that was right. Brian Cornell, from not not Cornell. Brian, um, from Chipotle, right? And and this and nickel, Brian Nicholas. They paid him. They paid him tens of millions of dollars and we got, and I'm a Starbucks investor and we got billions of dollars of proceeds. So I'm just so crazy. Yeah, that was the first one. What, what do we have? I mean, what continued to talk about this? But what do we, what are you seeing so far? We started talking about it a minute ago about you know what? This year's gonna look like, and maybe we can look a little forward. What what do you what do you thinking is going to happen? Like, maybe more settlements or I mean, what, what's the, what's the buzz that you do detected? Yes, I expect that to continue just that for the most part. I mean, it's in everyone's best interest. I got this. These Conversation stay, you know, Hush Hush behind the scenes and they can work things out quietly. So, I expect that to continue to kind of be see, more of that versus the full-fledged big proxy battle big splashy, kind of like, you know, proxy war or whatever you call right. Yeah, right. But two things or things that I think is interesting one we just discussed this whole idea of like KKR coming into a situation where they're already activists present and KKR, we even say in our story is basically said that they would look for other opportunities to do this down the road. And so this whole convergence of like, PE and activism I think is really fascinating, and not super new, but like I wonder how much more of that we're going to see, not just from KKR, but from others. So there could be pays. There could be lots of sources of money with lots of dry powder, right? Can make a little bit of a business out of and this is, this is a very Warren Buffett, ask kind of Where they can sort of say, okay you here's the money or here's some money or here's something you listen to us and and you kind of get to keep your job. So well, it's sort of like another version of a white knight with you White Knight stuff like night. Yeah. But um, but you know, is era of era of aggressive activists who are taking advantage of universal proxy and all sorts of other stuff. It may be more relevant than ever. That's really interesting. So there could be more of that coming down coming down. Okay, cool. More of that. Yeah. And then the one, the one another that I was gonna This. I don't know if you've seen this individual certainly online has a big voice. This Robbie Starbucks. Oh sure, I get him. Confused with the company. I always see the headline of him. I said, what are you doing now? Yeah, no, that's an easy mistake. Yeah, right. Yeah. He he's pushing companies to call back these Dei initiatives, but I think it will be interesting to watch and see kind of like what I was saying about Air Products. But if that Starts to spill over into the boardroom more. So right, and you actually see the financial activist show up and push for similar changes or do we see a new flavor of activists? Remember, you know, years ago we had oven he started his. Um, this inclusive inclusive capitalism was the name, Jeff Albin and it was really close. Its he left value actually existed but he then moved in college started inclusive. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead, right? But that was like, yes, all about it. ESG ESG, focused investing and of course he wrote up a story when he wound that down or he you know had to shut the firm down. Last year return money back to investors, right? And so I wonder if we've just how much do we see the pendulum swing in the other direction, but where it really? Because of because I mean between the Civic, political, whatever, climate environment influencing this stuff and then all. So some of the practicalities and so forth. Of running funds. There may be a lot more of that. I think it's what you're trying to hint. Yeah. Oh it'll be it should be an interesting year. Oh yeah. Well let's do that. Let's ourselves take a little quick break and we're going to talk more about activism but also a little bit about business journalism here at shareholder Primacy. Shareholder Primacy is brought to you by free flow analytics.com. The only free database of corporate directors, their influence and their performance Fiona stock, are retirement plan go to freeflow analytics.com, and look up, which of your elected directors are performing well and which aren't use your vote in the alternative democracy and get your data at free flow. Analytics.com. Now, back to the show, Shoulder Primacy. I'm Mike Levin here with Lauren Thomas of the Wall Street. So let's talk a little bit about activism but what it's like as a writer and a journalist, a business journalist so be involved in activist investing, you know what? What's it like to cover these? Cats and and I know what it's like to go find, you know, how you find and develop your stories. What? Yeah, what's it like to cover cover guys like me? yeah, no, it's such an Just seeing world. It's the whole cast of characters for sure and it's different from covering m&a. I have to say because I I kind of get to wear both hats and so you know when I'm breaking news on a deal there's a certain group of people kind of around it, you have bankers and lawyers and PR professionals and and that's kind of that, that group. But then obviously the activism Community, you have the activists themselves, which I think many of them are known to have more more of a personality and they have a whole team that we go the legal there, right? Certainly some of them are more than others but there's ego there too. So it's just and they're able to I think the thing about activists and why it's created a whole industry around it but they're able to have more of a megaphone and say things that when you're a public company you just can't you know, there are a lot more barriers to that and so I think that I so as a result yes I think in having this job you have To try to get to know, some of the key players, of course, and their teams. So getting to know the activist has been activists themselves has been really helpful and, of course, some of them are more more open than others to having relationships and there's a whole advisor Community. I mean, just like the bankers and lawyers that work on deals. There are bankers and lawyers that work just solely on activism. So getting in proxy solicitors. Don't forget the proxies listeners too. Oh, definitely the old copies of the world and so so that whole universe I feel like I've got a pretty good, you know, toehold into now and and I think it's just like knowing knowing who the players are. So if I have her here, oh there could be an activist at so, and so company, you know, trying to then be able to Think, Through myself, well, knowing what I know about Elliot or knowing what I know about starboard or Jenna like, could this fit their profile? And it's kind of A process of elimination sometimes of figuring things out that way. And of course, you just often, you know, you're out and about and you pick up on things going on in the industry and sure and try to try to break news that way. But yeah, I think that's the key difference is the personality. She acted you may have like, some some attorneys say which probably, yeah. Attorney. They, they're probably a little, maybe they are, I don't know, maybe the attorneys, maybe attorneys. Can blab off the Record confidentially, as much as anybody, but let's, let's some advice. We'll say advisor that will kind of say, hey, I know there's something going on it. XYZ symbol company or something. And then you have to do some sleuthing and some, some, some figuring out about kind of what's going on, kind of fill in some of the details. It's it doesn't sound like it's as in that somebody says, oh and this company is doing this and the activist is here and that they're probably not quite as I mean that would be wonderful. It really saved a lot of time, right? Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you're sleuthing around the activist Community using your contacts and your, your, your your list of people, you know, to try to again, bring the news out and, and help. In this case, help investors kind of learn what's going on in and you probably read your shares, Security's filings and so forth. And, you know, do something that to proxy proxy statement. Oh yeah. Well, we love the 13f, you know, whale watching or those, when those violence come out. It's always interesting to see if there are any new positions when I guess. Not new. Because there's always a trailing Factor. It's not the latest and greatest, but always looking for, for those sorts of things, for sure. Yeah, um, I, let's make a little bit of a distinction here because I've tracked and I will confess it Myers some of the, the schools and some of the breaks and so forth, that's really kind of fun. Like, we talked about it this morning, that was but there's also, you know, some more details or investigative and so forth. How would you kind of describe the the divide or how much of each do you focus on my sense? Is you spend a lot of time doing a lot. I kind of running around trying to find stories but yeah, I would say some of the other other stuff too. It's described. Yeah. Maybe the best way I could put it is. It's kind of like an 80/20. I think 80/20 and 80/20 rule is about right like 80% of the time I think spent More on the breaking news, trying to break, you know, have the next scoop on what's Elliot up to what starboard up to the, you know, what big m&a deal is getting announced next Monday? Like a big chunk of time. I think has been on that, but then I have that other 20% where I do try to constantly have like one or two bigger picture stories in the hopper that I'm chipping away at. So, as a mountain about meeting people, I'm not just asking them about specific situations, but I can also ask them about this other stuff or more thematic. What have you and and kind of collect string on that and and those are always really rewarding. I have to say and I think like as a reporter you find that those bigger stories you know not necessarily just like what's the deal of the day but the bigger stories are ones that people talk about for weeks and their people remember them and so it's always really fulfilling to be able to accomplish one of those but it's not easy, right? And you there's probably, you know, the the breaking news. Kind of stuff or that individual situations kind of make. I'm not saying they write themselves, you just said you got to do a lot of work. But those kind of just kind of happen and you need to be there with some energy and Ingenuity. That's got to be exhausting by the way. So, doing some of that, you probably pick yourself up at the end of a day and say, oh my God. And you, well, my goal. Yeah, it's something like that. I know sometimes I come home at night and I'm like a straight to bed. Yeah, this is like a Young Person's business. That's what I've decided. I, yeah, yeah for sure. All right, but you'll do still do some of the I mean because that, you know, some of the some of the longer, you know, like the thing we worked on at the end of the year, that kind of stuff, we're doing some research and kind of. But those, those kind of incubate, don't they those? I mean, you know, you could have an editor. Okay, take another week or two or another month or whatever. Exactly. Exactly. It's nice when there's no pressure. Yeah. Alright, let me ask you about what life is like at the Wall Street Journal which you know I have been reading for. 40 plus years, you know, it's it's it's always been you know obviously the main my main source of business news you know through it all Um you know, all the ups and downs and I read their opinion section. So if we're going to talk about that and I'm kind of curious, you've been there about three years. You did some other business reporting. Tell us about the general, but I'd be kind of curious about that. Well, I think I think the journal is incredible and I came over from CNBC which was more of, you know, there's the broadcast side of the business and you had CNBC digital cnbc.com kind of operating more like a startup and they feel like coming over to the journal. It's just such a well-oiled machine. Like you said that, it's been around for years and years, and years. And so, now, having this opportunity to work with editors of people that have been in The Newsroom, their whole lives. I think, has been like super helpful for someone that's like young in their career and just starting out and, and making sense of it all. And, you know, I think it goes without saying, I don't know, no matter where you work, the journal, CNBC anywhere in media nowadays, the past couple of months. I mean, even I mean past year or two, um, there's been a lot of change and you're, you're seeing that I think just suddenly like the pace of change has really picked up and we see it within The Newsroom. And but I think I think Lot of it has been kind of inevitable and ultimately just trying to get businesses like ours in better shape for the future. But so it's been interesting to kind of sit inside the company and watch watch that play out in real time as well because as an m&a reporter, I'm also out and about trying to break news on interesting deals for media and the media space and so it's it's like it really makes me think then when you kind of see see stuff happening at your own company as well and it's a new beat, right? I think that was just announced kind of toward the end of last year. You mean my role are you? Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I'm not a new for the journal's been. Yeah. For a very long time for you. I got it was a bit of a I guess you could say, it was a promotion just kind of helpful. To help them to help oversee, your spearhead, some of our coverage a bit more on m&a. So, okay and it was so it's it's you basically got a nice title more responsibility. Hope you got a little more money but I don't know, but yeah, that's fine but you're doing you're doing more. I mean, you already been covering some m&a but now because you were I think I think you were basically full-time activist. For time. Right? Yeah, but it was most I think there was always like I was covering m&a on the side and I don't know that my job has changed much. I think it's more like there is this expectation that in 2025 Deals Deals are really going to. Oh yeah they're picking up already. It's like there's a right and so so and we'll continue to cover activism Follow That World closely of course, but I think there is an expectation that there will be more m&a to cover this year too. So kind of preparing for that. Yeah. I know there was, there was a there had been an activist reporter who was your predecessor? I thought it was maybe it was Carol. I can't remember. Yes. Cara Lombardo who's now helps? Edit or she helped me my team now actually. And then I thought her professors was David Benoit, right? And he is your editor now I think, doesn't he? Yeah good. So maybe that's looking forward to oh, you know, strike me as someone who wants to be an editor. That's funny. You say that? I don't know. I I like yeah. I Like what I do now for sure. So I, I haven't thought that far ahead, but if David Carroll are listening, they should, they should pay attention. So yes, I'll make sure all right. So, this is, this is so cool and you have a cool job. You have a cool job too. Well, thank you, thank you. I don't know if you have any questions for any anything I can help you with any working on, right? Right. This minute that I know you. I'm curious what you think. I mean, do you expect like even with universal proxy? For example? I mean, what are you kind of anticipating for the year? Do you think I think I think the trip part of the problem is that we can, we can say, oh, there's going to be all sorts of big change and so forth. There's changing Washington and there's some big changes happening in our in our like larger world, but the world activists and you know, evolves It evolves but not is fast as people might might otherwise think so. We saw this trend, which was, you know, spurred on in part, by the holy Universal price stuff, we can spend a whole other show. I have spent another show talking about it. Yeah, so forth, right? Um, but the idea that There's going to be. Fewer of these, you know, high-profile proxy contest that go to a vote the thing with mantle Ridge in Air Products was just, you know, three out of four seats or whatever. That's going to become a little less of a factor. This people want to settle this stuff. You mentioned KKR coming in and spending a bunch of money at Henry, Schein and so forth. Um, you know, people want to people want to fix the business. They don't want to be fighting about this, which is You know, it's good for me as an investor probably not quite as good for a writer or a reporter who wants to go to an annual meeting and watch some sort of, you know, report on this, you know, close vote. That would be kind of that kind of cool. But it's, it's going to be and there's going to be some of those, you know, I have I keep most of of kind of pending proxy contest because I'm interested. Yeah, they're always. Yeah. Um, but there'll be more and, you know, there's a lot of data that, you know, as we said, you know, stuff settling faster what? One of the things that we're starting to that, at least, I'm starting to see and we should talk about is there so many more newer novel ways of pursuing activism and proxy, contests the whole thing with using using proxy solicitation for proposals, the idea is that you Universal proxy kind of opened up some new ways for activists to try to influence companies. You know, there's there's new avenues you know, for better for litigation To try to try to for active as to try to escalate things. There's no such a New Dimensions to this, then taking this beyond the standard, you know, notify you my candidates. Let's try to persuade everybody that we're right in your wrong and let's see you see who wins the vote. I think things are getting a little more interesting that way, so this is going to be a lot more fun stuff. To for us to read about, for you to cover in the, in this coming year and probably in the year's following house that I think. Yes, yes, thank you. All right, usually My job as asking the question is that why I wanted to give you a chance to ask me a question or two before we wrap up. So oh God perfectly that helped. Anyway, let's let's do that. Why don't we wrap up? I think we've, I've kept you long enough here and learned some great stuff. And I hope, I hope you enjoyed this too. So thanks Lauren, terrific, talking to you about all this. This is shareholder Primacy hosted. Normally, Buy in Lipton me, Mike Levin. I'm an independent activist investor and advisor to investors about their activist situations. Lauren is, of course, the lead deals reporter at the Wall Street Journal. You can find me Mike at the activist investor.com and Lauren at lauren.com Thomas at wsj.com. That's the Wall Street Journal, so let her know about breaking news, fun Scoops, all sorts of fun things that you're working on that. You think you want her to know about. Our podcast is produced and distributed by free float media. Thanks for listening and we will talk again soon. You.